[Guide] About the Conquer III (C3) Game Engine (Includes Editing Tools)

[Spirited]

I looked over what I have in my source code for TQ's client base, and I have a few little tools (they're very very outdated though - extremely old). The tools I have include a terrain effect editor, a puzzle file editor, a 3D model observer, and a map editor called "Architect". Here are some pictures if you're interested.

 Spoiler

Regarding the use of these tools, I would have to compile them. I have DirectX 8.1 SDK on my system, and Visual Studio 6.0, so let's hope that I can. I'll have to see how difficult it would be to compile the programs. To be honest, they don't look all that great. I have my doubts on their quality, but I suppose it's a start if I get them working.

[CptSky]

Zitat von Spirited Fang

[...] Regarding the use of these tools, I would have to compile them. I have DirectX 8.1 SDK on my system, and Visual Studio 6.0, so let's hope that I can. I'll have to see how difficult it would be to compile the programs. To be honest, they don't look all that great. I have my doubts on their quality, but I suppose it's a start if I get them working.

It will compile without issue if the source is original and complete. (Having compiled few TQ's sources)

[KraHen]

Zitat von funhacker

Don't think I ever finished it to a respectful state. However I did post the source if memory serves in this forum.

However I am learning to use OpenGL now and moving away from XNA, so I should be able to make a much more functional Map Editor one of these days

How would OpenGL over XNA allow you to create a more functional editor, exactly? You only need to work with 2D, so I think it will actually slow down the workflow.

[funhacker]

Zitat von KraHen

How would OpenGL over XNA allow you to create a more functional editor, exactly? You only need to work with 2D, so I think it will actually slow down the workflow.

OpenGL (if managed correctly) can be made to render more efficiently than XNA. As XNA is designed to be a framwork specifically for games in c#.
Although when I mentioned the learning of OpenGL I meant that I was busy, and not that it was a better choice than XNA for functionality.

[KraHen]

You do know that XNA is just a wrapper around DirectX, right? XNA renders sprites as textured quads, the same thing goes for OpenGL. The XNA sprite class is NOT equivalent with the inbuilt sprite class that DirectX or SharpDX has, at least I think so, I benchmarked these 2 options a while ago, and it is implemented so in the MonoGame framework as well (which uses OpenGL and makes my argument irrevelant, LOL.)

[funhacker]

Zitat von KraHen

You do know that XNA is just a wrapper around DirectX, right? XNA renders sprites as textured quads, the same thing goes for OpenGL. The XNA sprite class is NOT equivalent with the inbuilt sprite class that DirectX or SharpDX has, at least I think so, I benchmarked these 2 options a while ago, and it is implemented so in the MonoGame framework as well (which uses OpenGL and makes my argument irrevelant, LOL.)

XNA though, will render everything outside the viewport regardless, yes you can handle this yourself. However with OpenGL (I'm use Tao framework) it won't render anything outside the viewport.
Another example is that OpenGL by default will use a -1 -> 0 -> 1 coordinate system so if developed correctly it can easily adjust to any resolution; again you can do in XNA but requires more effort.
Lastly since you have direct access to the OpenGL stream you have a lot more freedom in how and when you render

[Spirited]

XNA is a completely dead framework. It's not used in the industry, it's not supported by Microsoft, it's dead. No updates, no support in higher visual studio versions. Gone. OpenGL, on the other hand, is more efficient than DirectX 11 and XNA if used correctly. It's also supported by the industry, receives updates, and is platform independent. Don't try and argue that XNA is better than OpenGL. It's just not the case. If you have benchmarks saying XNA is better, then you did something wrong with your benchmarking.

Regarding the map program, most of the resources it depends on are too out of date for me to find. The files aren't even in the Conquer 1.0 Alpha client. It does compile, so I'll be releasing it to the underground so we can work on it for you guys.

[KraHen]

@Fang : XNA is not dead, it lives through the open-source MonoGame framework. Although not for Xbox use anymore, many more platforms opened up. Check out the game called Bastion.

@funhacker : XNA only renders what you tell him to render, the same goes for OpenGL. The vertices are still passed to the GPU in the vertex shader in both cases, so they are 'rendered', this is a problem with every single graphics API and needs to be handled. Also, the projection you talk about is easily adjustable, and it MUST be adjusted for every OpenGL OR XNA project through the camera matrices (view and projection). In OpenGL your View and Projection matrices handle those proportions, and this isn`t different in XNA at all.

Direct access to OpenGL stream, of course you have. That is done through VBOs and IBOs, the same way you would do in XNA or DirectX. The vertices are passed to the geometry shader for tesselation, then to the vertex shader, then everything to the pixel shader (okay, this is a very simplified explanation for the graphics pipeline, but it still isn`t different in OpenGL and XNA).

Then again, if you just want to do 2D stuff, I would use SFML over anything else, personal preference (this lib owns hard time, windowing, texture loading, sound loading and playing and 2D rendering, together with OpenGL for 3D rendering. Not to mention threading and networking, but I don`t use that part of their lib)

[LordGragen.]

his not saying its 100% dead, of cores if you know how to program then you can make something good out of it but not many people use it.

[Spirited]

Zitat von LordGragen.

his not saying its 100% dead, of cores if you know how to program then you can make something good out of it but not many people use it.

No, I really am saying it's 100% dead. Mono can do whatever it wants with it, but that isn't XNA. If they want to support their own version of a managed XNA-like framework, that's great, but the XNA I was referring to was Microsoft's XNA. Most UC campuses ban students from using it. For example, University of California: Irvine's Computer Game Science club bans students from using XNA... and I agree. It's not used in the industry, and it's no longer supported by Microsoft. No more of it, please.

[funhacker]

Zitat von KraHen

@Fang : XNA is not dead, it lives through the open-source MonoGame framework. Although not for Xbox use anymore, many more platforms opened up. Check out the game called Bastion.

@funhacker : XNA only renders what you tell him to render, the same goes for OpenGL. The vertices are still passed to the GPU in the vertex shader in both cases, so they are 'rendered', this is a problem with every single graphics API and needs to be handled. Also, the projection you talk about is easily adjustable, and it MUST be adjusted for every OpenGL OR XNA project through the camera matrices (view and projection). In OpenGL your View and Projection matrices handle those proportions, and this isn`t different in XNA at all.

Direct access to OpenGL stream, of course you have. That is done through VBOs and IBOs, the same way you would do in XNA or DirectX. The vertices are passed to the geometry shader for tesselation, then to the vertex shader, then everything to the pixel shader (okay, this is a very simplified explanation for the graphics pipeline, but it still isn`t different in OpenGL and XNA).

Then again, if you just want to do 2D stuff, I would use SFML over anything else, personal preference (this lib owns hard time, windowing, texture loading, sound loading and playing and 2D rendering, together with OpenGL for 3D rendering. Not to mention threading and networking, but I don`t use that part of their lib)

If you tell XNA to render something at coords -100,-100 it will still render that using the GPU to do so, however if you told OpenGL to do this using the Tao framework it will not even consider rendering this as it's outside the viewport. As for matrices, I think you've followed way too many tutorials or something, as both frameworks do not need to use Matrices. They are purely for simplifying and mainstreaming your code and nothing else. I do use Matrices but rarely do I apply them to an entire rendering as this has adverse affects on your performance and can be pointless.

[KraHen]

@funhacker : Yep, I read too many tutorials, and that`s one reason why I use OpenGL at my current job as a game developer. IF you don`t need to do this using Tao then it is already implemented beneath the sheets, meaning that Tao is not vanilla OpenGL. What you are talking about is called view frustrum culling, which definitely has to do with the matrices of the viewport and has to be implemented both in OpenGL AND XNA (although it is very, very simple to do). IF you don`t use these that means that you use the default ones set up by OpenGL, thus eliminating lots of possibilities and creating much room for improvement.

And without using matrices for rendering, how exactly are you specifying the transforms for your vertices in your shaders? The only reason you wouldn`t use them in OpenGL is the case where you use the fixed function pipeline, without shaders, which is obsolete as hell. Then again you are using matrices every single time you render anything on your screen, to specify it`s positions. Maybe it seems like vectors for you, but actually you`re dealing with matrices.

[CptSky]

Zitat von Spirited Fang

[...] Edit: Also, this isn't the Conquer Online 3.0 engine. If you read the thread, it says that it's the Conquer Online 2.0 engine (their 2D game engine). Conquer Online 3.0 is going to be completely 3D (or, that's the plan from what I can gather at this moment).

CO3 will be 2.5D and based on the same CO2 client with updated resources, no ?

[Spirited]

Zitat von CptSky

CO3 will be 2.5D and based on the same CO2 client with updated resources, no ?

Based on the leaked development videos, Conquer Online 3.0's resources are completely 3-dimensional. Buildings, scenery, ground, monsters and characters, etc.

[mostafamemo]

Thanks , how can i export .c3 to 3dmax , I Can`t Translate it , if you can translate or make guide for it make it , please