[Suggestion] Remove the "Legit and Scam providers" type lists

[persesvx]

These lists should be removed, as the black market thread itself serves as a reputation source.
Those lists are a big conflict of interest, as most of the people running those lists sell products themselves in the same black market subforum. Going through those lists, you will also see people commenting that those should not be maintained by someone who is involved in the p2c business. I couldn't agree more, imagine BMW maintaining a list of top cars worldwide...
At least there should be some extra rules.

The comment sections is also filled with passive self advertisement. "Bla bla this product is bad, but I heard this one, which I'm totally not affiliated with, is the best one."

[0x41^4]

These lists should be removed, as the black market thread itself serves as a reputation source.

No, they shouldn't be removed. They serve as an informative hub.

The Black Market itself isn't without flaws -

1. Many developers use TBM simply as a bulletin board and only post when they've made changes / updates.
2. Developers have a tendency of buying reviews and positive ratings, thus making it difficult to filter out who is a legitimate buyer / user.
3. Sales threads are moderated under more scrutiny, thus conversations within said threads are often removed.

Those lists are a big conflict of interest, as most of the people running those lists sell products themselves in the same black market subforum.

Not quite.

• There are 11 lists; Xenos maintains 6. Despite selling cheats, he unbiasedly advertises all competitors in those threads.
• 1 list was created by 0x404, yes, sells cheats but hasn't been maintained since 2021 (should be closed and remade).
• 1 list was created by ZeoN, doesn't sell cheats.
• 1 list was created by Green, sells a spoofer for an unrelated game.
• 1 list was created by Coach, sells accounts, not cheats.
• 1 list was created by me, doesn't sell cheats.

At least there should be some extra rules.

If anyone does what you're concerned about, you can report the thread and moderators get involved - this has happened in the past.

The comment sections is also filled with passive self advertisement. "Bla bla this product is bad, but I heard this one, which I'm totally not affiliated with, is the best one."

Yes, that is the purpose, the lists were created to help people find the cheat that best fits them through open dialogue. Readers can find which cheat(s) is the best, the worst, the in-between, the most reliable, the community with the most toxic staff, the best customer experience, and more.

[persesvx]

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

No, they shouldn't be removed. They serve as an informative hub.

No, they don't. They are called "List of Legit and Scam Providers" (but also include stuff like detection or an "untrusted" section), not "Information and Reviews of Providers", so it's about reputation and not only providing information.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

The Black Market itself isn't without flaws.

True.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Many developers use TBM simply as a bulletin board and only post when they've made changes / updates

Not relevant here, those lists change nothing about that.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Developers have a tendency of buying reviews and positive ratings, thus making it difficult to filter out who is a legitimate buyer / user.

True, but the problem remains with those lists. Nothing is stopping those same developers from buying reviews for the list thread, so it's not solving any problems. It's even worse, as now you can also pay for negative reviews for competitor products to get them added to the "Detected/Untrusted" section.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Sales threads are moderated under more scrutiny, thus conversations within said threads are often removed.

Yes, but that's just the moderation team enforcing the epvp rules. It's also not relevant here, as my main concern is that those lists should not be maintained by people involved in the p2c scene.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Not quite.

Wdym "Not quite"? In the next sentence you literally confirmed yourself that the majority is maintained by someone selling products themself (in the same category), just like I said. And just like I said, it's a conflict of interests.
Just to make it clear, conflict of interest means that your personal interests, like financial gain, could influence your judgment. Which is very much the case here.

There are also much more lists than that, rust alone has 3. Im just going to take your word that Xenos is doing a good job maintaining them, but he's also not the one that caught my eye. Few others did.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

If anyone does what you're concerned about, you can report the thread and moderators get involved - this has happened in the past.

Yes, that works, but it's annoying for developers and sellers, and it's just unnecessary work for the epvp moderation.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Yes, that is the purpose, the lists were created to help people find the cheat that best fits them through open dialogue. Readers can find which cheat(s) is the best, the worst, the in-between, the most reliable, the community with the most toxic staff, the best customer experience, and more.

My example was that people will badmouth competitors products to advertise themselves. Sometimes they're even acting as if they are not affiliated with a certain product while talking godly about it. Don't think that's the purpose of those, In general I don't think that's a good thing.


In short, it's hard to argue against the fact that those lists should not be maintained by people involved in the P2C or reselling scene. The conflict of interest is very clear.

[0x41^4]

No, they don't. They are called "List of Legit and Scam Providers" (but also include stuff like detection or an "untrusted" section), not "Information and Reviews of Providers", so it's about reputation and not only providing information.

You're taking the title "List of Legit and Scam Providers" too literally. Beyond the "List of Legit and Scam Providers" in the original post, there's conversation(s) among customers exchanging commentary and seeking the best options for their needs. That's the point of these threads.

You can easily browse through any 1 of the 11 threads to see that many of the posts are people giving commentary on the various cheats listed.

Just to reinforce my point further, here are posts from only the last two pages of the Call of Duty list -

 Spoiler

Not relevant here, those lists change nothing about that.

It is relevant per your claim.

If developers are using TBM as a bulletin board, it restricts the conversation the consumer can have as the developer is absent. Additionally, sales threads often disallow the same type of discussion that takes place within the list threads.

True, but the problem remains with those lists. Nothing is stopping those same developers from buying reviews for the list thread, so it's not solving any problems. It's even worse, as now you can also pay for negative reviews for competitor products to get them added to the "Detected/Untrusted" section.

What's stopping them is the countless participants in the thread that will notice the fake reviews and call them out, which is against the rules within the sales thread but allowed in the list threads.

Also, paying someone to report a product as detected or untrusted would be pointless as they're tested by the list author.

Wdym "Not quite"? In the next sentence you literally confirmed yourself that the majority is maintained by someone selling products themself (in the same category), just like I said. And just like I said, it's a conflict of interests.
Just to make it clear, conflict of interest means that your personal interests, like financial gain, could influence your judgment. Which is very much the case here.

In your original post, you used the example "imagine BMW maintaining a list of top cars worldwide..."

Many car dealerships sell other brands, they don't accept trade-ins to hide them in the back and salvage them. They clean the trade-in up and resell it.

Additionally, following your own logic, anyone overseeing the list, be it a seller or not, faces a potential conflict of interest since everyone can be influenced by a financial gain.

Nonetheless, as I pointed out earlier, any deliberate mislabeling of a provider without evidence will be addressed by the staff following a report.

There are also much more lists than that, rust alone has 3. Im just going to take your word that Xenos is doing a good job maintaining them, but he's also not the one that caught my eye. Few others did.

I see two lists, and one hasn't been maintained at all, thus why the one by Relentless exists. To be fair, the old one should be closed - I'm going to report it after responding to you.

My example was that people will badmouth competitors products to advertise themselves. Sometimes they're even acting as if they are not affiliated with a certain product while talking godly about it. Don't think that's the purpose of those, In general I don't think that's a good thing.

That doesn't work in these these threads as you have a plethora of users that will initiate debate if they notice it happening.

A good example of this is a scammer that used to "sell" fake products here, Choron.

He ran a highly successful sales thread filled with fake trades and reviews. Customers who purchased from him received nothing, as there was no actual product. When these customers would call him out as a scammer on his thread, providing evidence, he'd report their comments, leading to their removal, perpetuating the scam.

However, things changed when people began discussing him in the list threads. Xenos labeled him as a scammer on his list after our own verification, allowing the community to conduct our own investigation. Then we presented all of the findings to the staff, leading to his trading privileges being revoked. Without the list threads, this outcome would've never have never happened.

[Xenos]

I don't think such lists should be deleted. They serve a valuable task to make the experience for users and newcomer better. Imagine everyone starting a new thread for each provider, to ask if its legit, undetected or scam. You can probably see how that can be abused as well? We already see a lot of such bait posts happening in a few sections.

First of all, while there is no official rule for the list makers, some are common sense:

• Don't highlight a provider (such as writing it bold, colored etc.)
• Taking any kind of money for it
• Don't be unfair

You seem to sell a Rust Script, and while I don't exactly fully know the current situation in the Rust Section, I don't see an issue with the current threads there.

I can't agree with your opinion about someone, that runs a P2C not be able to voice his opinion, trying to make it easy for users. Usually those are the most experienced. @Relentless for example is a reseller, but still lists pretty much every Rust Cheat out there. Usually if such a list isnt maintained, it is getting replaced by a successor as seen in the Rust and Fortnite Section.

I for my part, have the affiliation with ProofCore and HypeX visible, but still up to the task.

 Spoiler

Marking ProofCore as detected:


Listing pretty much every Apex Script there is out there:

I think every thread should have a note like some of my threads have, so everyone can see who and why is voicing their opinion:



Lets say I'm Provider XYZ and want to get listed. I make a public request to get listed and everyone sees it. No under the table requests and so on.

In the end is also valuable for you as a user and seller, because such lists are ranking very high on google, bringing new users to the forum. For example when you search for "legit apex cheat", elitepvpers will be your first and second result because of it. It also happened countless times that those lists appeared in Youtube Videos or been copied to other websites. And I can assume that if such lists are gone, competitors on different forums and especially discord servers (which a few are already out there) will take over this job, and they most likely be not as supervised as here on elitepvpers.

Originally Posted by persesvx

Yes, that works, but it's annoying for developers and sellers, and it's just unnecessary work for the epvp moderation.

I have made thousands of reports over the years and I can assure you that such lists put less stress on the moderation team then those bait posts happening over and over.

Originally Posted by persesvx

The comment sections is also filled with passive self advertisement. "Bla bla this product is bad, but I heard this one, which I'm totally not affiliated with, is the best one."

Ever seen when somebody asks for a cheat what happens?

Now imagine this x10 for every question

[Relentless]

These lists save many people time money and stop them from getting into stressful situations. you have seen the daily scams that take place on epvp, imagine how much worse it would be without these lists, people would be running riot, scamming would become even worse. Now i understand some people find the lists biased, but the contents of the lists are true. For example im a reseller but i run a list, i run a semi private and slotted project too, but i dont advertise it on the list due to the constant backlash i get from other people. i also sell a couple of the products on the list, but why do i sell them ? Because theyre safe, theyre trusted. Ive been harassed for being a reseller with a list, but in reality what else have i got to sell if i wasnt selling something on the list thats "legit", id then have to sell all untrusted products, and hows that gonna work out *****.
These lists are very accurate, you always get some people complaining and you cant help that, but these lists are not and will not go anywhere, they have been in operation for years and are supported by the admins themselves such as Luke.

Now while this thread is active, if you or anyone has any additions you would like made to the lists ,or changes, or just general improvements. Please say so.

" should not be maintained by someone who is involved in the p2c business", the problem is not everyone is also up for the job of running these lists. I myself had my list up far before i was a rust reseller.

"as the black market thread itself serves as a reputation source.", and TBM rating is the easiest thing to fake, all it takes is friends or alt accounts on a different IP to simply send you a trade request and boom, you have gained "reputation". ALOT of the people in TBM have fake rep, i personally wouldn't be using that as a way to gage how trusted someone is, that rep could also be from a different thing. For example, someone who now sells p2cs could have got that rep from selling art work, or video editing services, which is COMPLETLEY unrelated to the p2c there now selling.

[persesvx]

Originally Posted by Xenos

I don't think such lists should be deleted. They serve a valuable task to make the experience for users and newcomer better. Imagine everyone starting a new thread for each provider, to ask if its legit, undetected or scam. You can probably see how that can be abused as well? We already see a lot of such bait posts happening in a few sections.

First of all, while there is no official rule for the list makers, some are common sense:

• Don't highlight a provider (such as writing it bold, colored etc.)
• Taking any kind of money for it
• Don't be unfair

You seem to sell a Rust Script, and while I don't exactly fully know the current situation in the Rust Section, I don't see an issue with the current threads there.

I can't agree with your opinion about someone, that runs a P2C not be able to voice his opinion, trying to make it easy for users. Usually those are the most experienced. @ for example is a reseller, but still lists pretty much every Rust Cheat out there. Usually if such a list isnt maintained, it is getting replaced by a successor as seen in the Rust and Fortnite Section.

I for my part, have the affiliation with ProofCore and HypeX visible, but still up to the task.

 Spoiler

Marking ProofCore as detected:


Listing pretty much every Apex Script there is out there:

I think every thread should have a note like some of my threads have, so everyone can see who and why is voicing their opinion:



Lets say I'm Provider XYZ and want to get listed. I make a public request to get listed and everyone sees it. No under the table requests and so on.

In the end is also valuable for you as a user and seller, because such lists are ranking very high on google, bringing new users to the forum. For example when you search for "legit apex cheat", elitepvpers will be your first and second result because of it. It also happened countless times that those lists appeared in Youtube Videos or been copied to other websites. And I can assume that if such lists are gone, competitors on different forums and especially discord servers (which a few are already out there) will take over this job, and they most likely be not as supervised as here on elitepvpers.




I have made thousands of reports over the years and I can assure you that such lists put less stress on the moderation team then those bait posts happening over and over.



Ever seen when somebody asks for a cheat what happens?



Now imagine this x10 for every question

Yea good points, I agree. My only concern is still who is allowed to maintain such a list but I guess if somebody is not appropriate for it, it should solve itself sooner or later.

['~BuFu_-©]

Isn't that prohibited under TBM rules anyway?