This community

[Holo'sORION]

Like i said above, CO community will have absolute fail at Epvp.

Side community is the best idea. But that won't work because of the selfish act of people.

[pro4never]

Yet another, more current example for ppl...

Map creator/editor. The only reason I never finished or released a better version of my was due to lack of public information on COMPLETE dmap file structure.

Sure I can figure that out myself (I finally took the time to pull out access information structure the other day) but it's a rather needless hurdle to those wanting to write their own tools and improve their understanding.

<note> Not me asking for full dmap structures, nor saying they are such private information... just that it seems very few people have cared to release them to the public before (implementations are public, source code and such is not from what I've seen)

[funhacker]

I skimmed most of this thread, and I agree with , and CO is not the only section this happens in. It starts off with good intentions, everyone shares openly without requirement and then a sense of competition hits the community and then nothing big really is shared.
I've made a couple requests for just file structures compared to the mySQL tables used in CO so I could include more structures in my app I developed for use with such server work like CO.

An example is the only one I could find is ' thread about itemtype structure for version 43XX. No one has actually replied to any threads, in both ZO or CO sections as to how files are structured and related MySQL fields. I developed the app so universal it could be used for almost ANY game, it's even designed that you could theoretically create MySQL tables/database that is a mesh file and have it output the .c3 file.
I do need to add optional encryption as some files are "encrypted" by TQ standards in some of their games.

[Korvacs]

Originally Posted by bone-you

Because not everyone thinks and works alike. People like me learn better via studying functional implementations while others might work better with theory aka a wiki. Only acknowledging one type is terrible. As I go to work on this source I'm working on now, I'm going to go pick apart every released source to date. Not to steal code or anything, but to see how they did it, see their implementation, and improve upon it. Obviously can't steal code anyway as it is since mine will be in C++, but to assume your method is the best without looking at alternatives is ignorant. My goal is the same as it was before. To make the best, most functional server source there is. One thing I will accept is I don't have all the answers.

Now your contradicting yourself again, now we should supply people with everything despite you previously agreeing that a tiered restricted system would be suitable.

Not to mention that we do have implementation available already, i was merely stating (Again) that this is how the community is now, the majority of us (I believe) would rather not hand out complete implementations for problems, rather sudo code and theory so that people have to atleast write it themselves. Your idea allows anyone to just C/P code into a project and go away knowing nothing at the end of it, not knowing how to debug it, now knowing how to improve on it, and not knowing where its flaws are.

Where as someone who has been given sudo code/theory can go away and write their own implementation, understands how the code works top to bottom, knows where its flaws are, and how to debug it and therefore how to improve on it in future.

Anyone (again) who is smart enough to be able to learn from existing implementation (such as yourself) is equally smart enough to be able to read some theory and write something fit for purpose.

[bone-you]

Originally Posted by pro4never

Yet another, more current example for ppl...

Map creator/editor. The only reason I never finished or released a better version of my was due to lack of public information on COMPLETE dmap file structure.

Sure I can figure that out myself (I finally took the time to pull out access information structure the other day) but it's a rather needless hurdle to those wanting to write their own tools and improve their understanding.

<note> Not me asking for full dmap structures, nor saying they are such private information... just that it seems very few people have cared to release them to the public before (implementations are public, source code and such is not from what I've seen)

Just skimmed that thread. Shame. That looked like it could have been the most awesome community tool back when you started it. Instead of working together to BEAT TQ at their own game, we're all working against each other.

[_DreadNought_]

Originally Posted by pro4never

Yet another, more current example for ppl...

Map creator/editor. The only reason I never finished or released a better version of my was due to lack of public information on COMPLETE dmap file structure.

Sure I can figure that out myself (I finally took the time to pull out access information structure the other day) but it's a rather needless hurdle to those wanting to write their own tools and improve their understanding.

<note> Not me asking for full dmap structures, nor saying they are such private information... just that it seems very few people have cared to release them to the public before (implementations are public, source code and such is not from what I've seen)

Ultimation made a awesome DMap Editor, should check it out.

[Korvacs]

Originally Posted by bone-you

Just skimmed that thread. Shame. That looked like it could have been the most awesome community tool back when you started it. Instead of working together to BEAT TQ at their own game, we're all working against each other.

Hardly working against each other if no one has actually bothered to put the work in previously.....if the information just isnt available then its just not available, equally you could say that pro is at fault for him not putting the effort in at the time and releasing that information to the public, thats not what im saying, but just thought it worth pointing out.

[bone-you]

Originally Posted by Korvacs

Now your contradicting yourself again, now we should supply people with everything despite you previously agreeing that a tiered restricted system would be suitable.

Not to mention that we do have implementation available already, i was merely stating (Again) that this is how the community is now, the majority of us (I believe) would rather not hand out complete implementations for problems, rather sudo code and theory so that people have to atleast write it themselves. Your idea allows anyone to just C/P code into a project and go away knowing nothing at the end of it, not knowing how to debug it, now knowing how to improve on it, and not knowing where its flaws are.

Where as someone who has been given sudo code/theory can go away and write their own implementation, understands how the code works top to bottom, knows where its flaws are, and how to debug it and therefore how to improve on it in future.

Anyone (again) who is smart enough to be able to learn from existing implementation (such as yourself) is equally smart enough to be able to read some theory and write something fit for purpose.

Hah. Wrong. I don't think everything should be spoon fed.

That's cool you don't want to hand out implementations. Implementations can't be copy pasted necessarily. Even then, what the hell do you think has been happening all these years since the original CO emulator attempt? Everyone's been copy pasting nonstop. I remember when the questions were a flat out "this didn't work when I copied it to my source". I learn something better given something to play with. Something I can work with as is. I don't need to be given an entire source of a functional server to learn how to do it. When I go to learn something new, I find a practical application of a similar model. For instance, if I'm learning how to develop a packet queue system, I won't look specifically at a packet queue system in another program itself, I'll look around for any sort of queue system, learn how they work, compare and contrast, and then I'll make one (keyword make, not copy paste). All that is possible (and now I've learned exactly how it works) because there were implementations to be studied. When the packet encryption first came out oh so long ago, people were all saying things like "It's SSL" "It's Blowfish" "It's this, it's that". I was trying to keep up and my lack of SSL experience (and asm) prevented me from truly learning how to defeat the new system because there were conflicting messages, confusing ones, and no one willing to help. Not saying to code everything for the noobies and let them run amuck, but information is power. If you were to tell me exactly what something is, I could go figure out exactly how to pull it off without you giving me a line of code. But that's the issue there. No one was (still maybe?) willing to give out the smallest pieces of information. Therefore, I took a break.


Also, don't assume everyone thinks alike like I said already. Just because you might learn something one way doesn't mean others do the same. I am a very hands on learner. Theory and talking do nothing for me. I taught myself to code with a like 600 page C++ book and VC6.0. I read the basics of an if/else/functions and shit like that (though I had already known because of my prior experience with mIRC scripting) but beyond that, the rest I learned from typing in what I thought would work, and seeing the results in front of me. Being 13 didn't give me very many options to learn any other way. That's my story, I'm sure you really wanted to read it, but it does tie into my point. Plenty of people can be turned off and turned away just because you try to appeal to only one type of person. I sure was.

Originally Posted by Korvacs

Hardly working against each other if no one has actually bothered to put the work in previously.....if the information just isnt available then its just not available,

I meant in general.

[InfamousNoone]

Still reading this in physics

[Korvacs]

And another contradiction, now we shouldn't be spoon feeding. Pick one and stick to that side of the argument, as the discussion is going no where with you constantly changing your stand point.

[bone-you]

Originally Posted by Korvacs

And another contradiction, now we shouldn't be spoon feeding. Pick one and stick to that side of the argument, as the discussion is going no where with you constantly changing your stand point.

I never said anyone should spoon feed. Never. I've been saying the same thing. It's too **** difficult to get anything in this community because everyone keeps to themselves and their tight circle. Either everything should be made open or a better UG/Lv2 system should come into play. One or the other. At first I suggested making it open, but then Ultimation suggested redoing the levels and that'd be good too as long as it wasn't super exclusive. Never did I suggest "do everything for everyone so they can all profit" (aka spoon feed).

[InfamousNoone]

Ok holy **** weve decided to redo thr levels system. We all agree its a good idea, now we need the approval of epvp admins and to decide on leader(s).

[Ultimation]

Infamous,Dan,Zato,CptSky, Korvacs and i should be leaders. (sorry if i missed anyone XD)

[bone-you]

Originally Posted by Ultimation

Infamous,Dan,Zato,CptSky, Korvacs and i should be leaders. (sorry if i missed anyone XD)

I don't think there should be 5 leaders (or more as you're suggesting). One or two would be just fine to fill the gap when each other aren't around for whatever reason.

[Korvacs]

Originally Posted by InfamousNoone

Ok holy **** weve decided to redo thr levels system. We all agree its a good idea, now we need the approval of epvp admins and to decide on leader(s).

Its not going to happen, they wouldnt move on .Mio being leader of the UG, never mind redesigning levels for us.