[Project Alpha] Phase 1 LIVE !

[bog18dy]

Originally Posted by josped

Some true things, some not

So, in some way you're right, we didn't push for a full v1 version, it was softened, and people complained it was too hard, what you just said would be way harder, I doubt people would want that.

Let me exemplify, when our population burst compared to the almost null one that we previously had, was when we offered free 1-9 refine materials, we made 100% +9 refine and when we released new "better statted" items.

What we decided on doing is releasing nerfed things starting with tibet, so we don't go "full ******" on the OP stats and try to keep a somehow decent balance (if this is possible).

Yeah, talking about idealistic situation is nice, you start with a personal view upon content, then the community "guides" you on how to proceed with updates, even if your concept if good, but it doesn't satisfy players, at the end of the day your "business model" failed (no I'm not talking about money, but population) and my point is that people don't want an v1 model, nur anything close to it.

[josped]

You're mistaking correlation for causation, and that's a very slippery slope Or, to put it some other way, if you change two variables to get a result, you can't really be sure if it was one, the other or both that brought about the new result.

I'll stand by what i said before, v1 does work and when properly implemented makes for lots of fun, both PvE and PvP. Been there, done that. As a reminder, the time when 9D's population was at it's peak, WAS old time v1 ,) Past LD's opening it just got slimmer and slimmer by the day.

So, blaming v1 for the lack of people when you ended up having to boost xp+freebies (which was the root cause imho) is a bit whack ^,..,^

As for the " try to keep a somehow decent balance (if this is possible)." part, sod luck. Me, Gene, Tali, Jpexz, G-Force and others did the math over and over back in Acclaim as the game changed. It never works properly when it's not in "original mode".

The issue is that the original maths at the base of the game are very unforgiving. The whole thing relies on certain values not being reached, which was a non issue back when the game was designed. It's a complicated rock-paper-scissor game, but with a lot more than 3 choices. For any build, there's another class/build that's totally vulnerable vs you and another that totally trashes you. In "real v1" there isn't a single class/build that you can't build against.

From there on, as you add things, you have "balance of power" changes, towards one class or another, one build or another, and keeps getting more and more unbalanced the further you change stuff around.

Heck, Indy tried it and failed. They changed to v2 to try and fix (what they had broken) and it took them over 2y and piles of gear changes to even come close to the natural balance v1 has.

Funny and sad, but 9D will be another fine example on why not to fix what isn't broken ,)

p.s. Other than xp and freebies, for v1 to work, you have to show people HOW to play in it. Meaning, they need a guide (or two) written, because there's about a dozen or so people that are actually knowledgeable still going around. The days when nabs could ask questions and get decent answers in game are long gone...

[bog18dy]

Originally Posted by josped

interesting points as always

Actually, I see it another way... Indy faced the same problem we face, which is "further development", v1 prevents that, it really does, it doesn't allow for any items that people would feel some "progression" upon, it mostly allows for MANY low sttated items that build towards "your char", which encourages diversity, true. However, the community nowadays wants to have the feeling of progression (thus you see many people wanting high-end gear).

Progression>Balance today

Like I said, we can't stop at CS cap, it would kill us, and v1 works perfectly @ that cap without any of the new items, which guess what ? People actually want new content (items).

Your points are good and valid, but things changed, not only in the 9D scene, but overall, players became a lot more casual.

P.S. 1 question for you: Do you think introducing defense items is the main factor which started killing "balance" ?

[Adek]

Originally Posted by josped

The issue is that the original maths at the base of the game are very unforgiving. The whole thing relies on certain values not being reached, which was a non issue back when the game was designed. It's a complicated rock-paper-scissor game, but with a lot more than 3 choices.

It's simple (for those who watched the Bing Bang Theory):


Maybe vid will help you to understand:

XD

[josped]

Originally Posted by adek1994

It's simple (for those who watched the Bing Bang Theory)

Funny enough, i found about that example last month on a c# class. But yeah, that's the general idea, having something that can/can't be beaten depending on the other side of the equation. That's what balance comes down to in the end.

Originally Posted by bog18dy

Actually, I see it another way... Indy faced the same problem we face, which is "further development", v1 prevents that, it really does, it doesn't allow for any items that people would feel some "progression" upon, it mostly allows for MANY low sttated items that build towards "your char", which encourages diversity, true.

Not really. The problem Indy faced was "how to extort money from players past this point". v1 is naturally balanced and doesn't need anything from IM other than a basic deco and premmy. And even that is optional unless you're into PvP. Thus, they "created" the need to IM to get anywhere

Originally Posted by bog18dy

Like I said, we can't stop at CS cap, it would kill us, and v1 works perfectly @ that cap without any of the new items, which guess what ? People actually want new content (items).

Your points are good and valid, but things changed, not only in the 9D scene, but overall, players became a lot more casual.

v1 works (at least) until DB cap. Can't say for over that, would have to check some math. Obviously, that's assuming no 2nd role, as the 255+ screws things royally.

As for the casual players, that, once more, is a starting gear+xp issue. Give them 1200%xp+beads+weapons like Play9D r3 did and they'll flock over en masse no matter what version/mods/crap you implement.

Originally Posted by bog18dy

P.S. 1 question for you: Do you think introducing defense items is the main factor which started killing "balance" ?

Yep, that was the main issue and the start of it, but goes WAY back, even before CS cap. Wasn't even Acclaim days yet. It dates back to GB/FC caps, first with def trink, then with BT/Mansion relics. Ofc it only got worse with time.

CS cap was just a "longer iatus" between caps where people could just take a look and KNOW balance was one step away. History shows the step was taken, but in the wrong direction.

(dumb) PvE healers/hybs in particular cried all day for more ck def, without even thinking how it affected THEM. Once ck def rises, ck healers and ck hybs make f'all dmg because of crap base skills. And their melee skills just can't deal with warriors dex/con.

Sadly, their crying went even higher because Indy gave totally out of depth dmg to 2nd role "nuker nukes", and made ck def a "have or die" thing.

Thus came clothes, epis, decos, etc... And PvP went from "fast/furious/fun dozens of people in BP" to "wow, it's the same old dozen or so people every damn day, and fights are taking over 30m if that little..."

Then, on top, you got YYBS to screw it even more (cause they needed to sell decos...), hilarious speed items on a 100% capped game (they sold 50% pots in IM too...), etc...

All in all, a perfect "how to screw a great game to profit from IM" book.

[Adek]

Originally Posted by josped

Funny enough, i found about that example last month on a c# class. But yeah, that's the general idea, having something that can/can't be beaten depending on the other side of the equation. That's what balance comes down to in the end.

But it's impossible to make it just like that... Except we add CK hybrid to that "equation" of 4 roles, so you make it 5 then. And you can go with schema made with Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock

*tried to draw it for 4 roles, too hard tho - and the game itself isn't that simple*

[josped]

Originally Posted by adek1994

*tried to draw it for 4 roles, too hard tho - and the game itself isn't that simple*

It's hard if you try and plot the whole graph. Just think about it the simple way, ie, for any class/build you can do, there's (at least) two others. One that will fail vs you and another that will win vs you.

Example: A Str/Wis build nuker will always win vs a Str/Dex warrior, but will always loose to a Wis/Ess nuker.

Or in more general terms, write down a build x, figure the build y that beats x, then figure the build z that is most vulnerable to x.

p.s. ck hybs are a special case in 9D. Amusingly enough, they are the best grind class and the worst "vs boss" class And in PvP they only work in one of three cases, 1) if there are no ck def items and opp has low wis/ess (REAL LOW) 2) if they are stacking LOADS of YYBS or 3) if server has full leech items implemented AND it's "open map PvP"

p.s.2 there's a 4 actually, which is what i used to play on P9Dr2. It's basically a ck hyb with maxed con and speed above 150%. You "win" by basically walking away real fast and keeping out of PvP. Max con+veggies recovers so much HP it's near impossible to get killed. And people get really ****** after 30m of running after you all across the maps

[bog18dy]

Originally Posted by josped

Or in more general terms, write down a build x, figure the build y that beats x, then figure the build z that is most vulnerable to x.

What about trying to bring everybody to the same "power lv" rather than doing this ? This is what I've tried to push forward, but maybe the concept of rock-paper-scissor is better...

[josped]

Originally Posted by bog18dy

What about trying to bring everybody to the same "power lv" rather than doing this ? This is what I've tried to push forward, but maybe the concept of rock-paper-scissor is better...

"Equalization" is a fallacy when it comes to this. Think of a simple example. Class A does x dmg on attacks. Class B heals x dmg on heal. Now, A and B are perfectly matched, because the net sum is 0. Now imagine a class C that does 0.5x damage and heals 0.5x on heal. It will loose to both A and B because it can neither compensate A's superior dmg or break through B's superior heal.

As you can see, even simple mechanics can be hard to balance. So, usually you take the next best, which is "take some, give some".

The perfect example imho would be Quake 1. You could accelerate the player far beyond what the engine allowed, gaining speed advantage, and even positional advantage if you consider rocket jumping. The catch? You had to damage yourself, because speed boost was proportional to damage taken. Thus, for (PvP) Quake players, life was basically juggling how fast/high you wanted to go vs how much damage you could (or were willing) to take.

[makiraper]

lol from when 9 D become so complicated on maths ? xD
im thinking the new system much better for grind bcs this is game click atack one by one and slow way like old times its anoying and bored really, so this extra full dmg, crit etc etc help and make grind much better.
another thing is pvp system they ruined it when crit become the only important thing ( love when dmg + def + dodge balance work perfect at pvp before )

[bog18dy]

Originally Posted by josped

"Equalization" is a fallacy when it comes to this. Think of a simple example. Class A does x dmg on attacks. Class B heals x dmg on heal. Now, A and B are perfectly matched, because the net sum is 0. Now imagine a class C that does 0.5x damage and heals 0.5x on heal. It will loose to both A and B because it can neither compensate A's superior dmg or break through B's superior heal.

Power lv doesn't really refer to that, and that's not really the way I tried to do stuff, more like class C has 0.5x damage, heals 0.5x on heal but has 1.3x hp compared to A and B who have same HP, but I guess the "role countering" system might be better.

Also the fact that pve became too easy and classes like melee hyb/healer "were meant for pve" (hard pve), it makes them useless in the "current meta" warrior are both pve and pvp dominant.

[josped]

Originally Posted by bog18dy

Also the fact that pve became too easy and classes like melee hyb/healer "were meant for pve" (hard pve), it makes them useless in the "current meta" warrior are both pve and pvp dominant.

It's a side effect of what people (with personal interests i'd say) don't want changed.

If you add def items to help grind, nukers become dominant. If you give 2n role, nukers get more dominant because of ec/fc nukes. If you give ck def items to compensate, nukers and warriors equalize and hyb/healer becomes pointless. If you give a few more ck def items/epis, now nuker also becomes pointless.

The current "warrior meta" isn't all that special, just a side effect of them having no pen on the 3 PvP stats, Con/Wis/Dex and the highest hp/con.

Or, using the Quake example, it goes down the drain because they get something for nothing.

Originally Posted by makiraper

lol from when 9 D become so complicated on maths ? xD

9D's math isn't that hard, and is in fact well documented. People refusing to admit what has been proven right countless times is what's hard (to understand).

Originally Posted by makiraper

another thing is pvp system they ruined it when crit become the only important thing

Two reasons for the crit deal. One is that damage became so low only crits made a relevant difference. Blame (ck)def on that. The other i can't say, sorry (but if curious, spend some time with a low nuker on the tiger in Shao/Shizang or Wei BG's in CC4, you'll figure it).

[makiraper]

abouth criticals in pvp i mean.. who got more crit rate win yes or yes. tested alot of times with diferents rules. same lvl. gear etc.
to compensate the balance btw warriors/ nukers and why healers hyb useles now.. just rush up much more the buffs and make only for urself (like hyb buff korean version) or upgrade too the actives and nukes xD

[Adek]

Originally Posted by josped

It's hard if you try and plot the whole graph. Just think about it the simple way, ie, for any class/build you can do, there's (at least) two others. One that will fail vs you and another that will win vs you.

Example: A Str/Wis build nuker will always win vs a Str/Dex warrior, but will always loose to a Wis/Ess nuker.

Or in more general terms, write down a build x, figure the build y that beats x, then figure the build z that is most vulnerable to x.

p.s. ck hybs are a special case in 9D. Amusingly enough, they are the best grind class and the worst "vs boss" class And in PvP they only work in one of three cases, 1) if there are no ck def items and opp has low wis/ess (REAL LOW) 2) if they are stacking LOADS of YYBS or 3) if server has full leech items implemented AND it's "open map PvP"

p.s.2 there's a 4 actually, which is what i used to play on P9Dr2. It's basically a ck hyb with maxed con and speed above 150%. You "win" by basically walking away real fast and keeping out of PvP. Max con+veggies recovers so much HP it's near impossible to get killed. And people get really pissed after 30m of running after you all across the maps

Actually it was exactly how I kept to be worst PvPer ever, still won the fight with my CK hyb. That Rock-Paper-Scissors idea with those builds is crazy, but doable... Maybe.

Originally Posted by bog18dy

Power lv doesn't really refer to that, and that's not really the way I tried to do stuff, more like class C has 0.5x damage, heals 0.5x on heal but has 1.3x hp compared to A and B who have same HP, but I guess the "role countering" system might be better.

Also the fact that pve became too easy and classes like melee hyb/healer "were meant for pve" (hard pve), it makes them useless in the "current meta" warrior are both pve and pvp dominant.

^good point there imo.

Originally Posted by makiraper

abouth criticals in pvp i mean.. who got more crit rate win yes or yes. tested alot of times with diferents rules. same lvl. gear etc.
to compensate the balance btw warriors/ nukers and why healers hyb useles now.. just rush up much more the buffs and make only for urself (like hyb buff korean version) or upgrade too the actives and nukes xD

That's why many crit items were removed at first, you still have only crit from epis/mastery + 10% crit orns.

[josped]

On another note, interesting work on the textures, but... needs some critical self assessment. While some of the new ones are quite nice, and a long due change, others look plain awful