All About Programmers

[tanelipe]

A switch statement would be a lot of better! (looks neater)

[unknownone]

Steps 7 & 8 are actually easier than step 5 & 6.
Have you ever tried using a library of some kind where the documentation sucks, or is nonexistant? Ain't an enjoyable task anyway.

[evanxxxm]

just enjoy urself when u are programming for others
reject if u dont like it
thats my rule

and a almost 100% golden rule is even a noob programmer, if he puts in effort to explain or show some part of scripts, better programmers will be happy to provide some sort of direction/help. as u might have notice, most scripts have a lots of documents/comments along the code lines. of course, it will be easier for that programmer to read it later on, but also the purpose is to show other people whats going on, and hopefully they can understand and provide feedbacks/suggestions.
lastly programmers are not computer compiled programs, so yes they have emotion, whether u believe or not, they sometimes will be glad if someone can acknowledge and praise them

[MushyPeas]

A question (for anyone who feels like answering it) evan's post reminded me of:
Do you differentiate between programmers and scripters?
Should a person writing in AHK or AutoIT be considered a scripter or a programmer?

[evanxxxm]

MushyPeas@
its just like before C++ comes out, C# is what most people used to program
then an improved and easier syntax comes out, which we now called it C++, so people starts using it
now, if u consider AHK/AutoIT is a language improved from C++ (actually everything base and compiled from C++, AHK just helps u simplify everything), then it is also a programming language

personally, i know java, C++ and AHK, for programs that are not used in class/business projects, i dont see the reason why i need to declare all the libraries and values when i can write 1 AHK line to perform the task i want

the part **** me off most is the C++ GUI functions
once i learned how easy it is in AHK, i just dont feel like spending hours to create a C++ GUI
(probably if i create ELSEpath GUI with C++, it will end up 1000+ lines)

PS* scripters writes codes that can compile as programs for people to use, so unless u have a very specific defination difference scripters and programmers, they are the same

[iliveoncaffiene]

Originally Posted by (GAME)Master

if
level 1 = I can code "hello world" in some language.
else
level 2 = I get some of the $hit but its all too hard.
else
level 3 = I can steal someone else's code and pass it off as my own.
else
level 4 = I can rewrite/manipulate someone else's code a little.
else
level 5 = I can understand someone else's code.
else
level 6 = I can actually improve on someone else's code.
else
level 7 = Why do I need someone else's code at all.
else
level 8 = Training wheels are off and your building your own projects.
else
level 9 = Now your doing things others can't do(stylish and creative factor)
end if

You aren't a programmer. Those should be else ifs.

If you had put else ifs, I would have recommended a switch :P

Lastly, the syntax is wrong....

string desc;
switch(level) {
  case 1:
    desc="I can code \"hello world\" in some language.";
    break;
  //etc..etc
}
printf("%s\n",desc);

I know it seems like I'm being **** about it but.... >.< it just annoys me lol

[MushyPeas]

Originally Posted by iliveoncaffiene

I know it seems like I'm being **** about it but.... >.< it just annoys me lol

Psh.. such a programmer

[ChingChong23]

I don't consider scripters as programmers.

@evanxxx: Is it just me, or did you have C++ and C# backwards?

@ that game master idiot who tried to look like he was a programmer and failed horribly

String [] txt = { 
"I can code "hello world" in some language.",
"I get some of the $hit but its all too hard.",
"I can steal someone else's code and pass it off as my own.",
"I can rewrite/manipulate someone else's code a little.",
"I can understand someone else's code.",
"I can actually improve on someone else's code.",
"Why do I need someone else's code at all.",
"Training wheels are off and your building your own projects.",
"Now your doing things others can't do(stylish and creative factor) 
end if"
};

for(int i=1; i < txt.length; i++)
   System.out.println("Level " + i + ": " + txt[i]);

Btw that reminds me, i was looking through a few CO private server sources and it was quite disgusting the way they did a lot of things, i saw so many if/elses and bad coding in so many situations, they need to learn to use collections and iteration. even switches would be nice.

[evanxxxm]

ChingChong23@
sorry, i meant C
anyhow my point is C++ is improved and developed from C
so as AHK is simplify/improved and developed from C++

AHK might not be the next generation language, but its just a matter of time for new and improved languages comes out
and people will acknowledge through a period of time

[ChingChong23]

isn't AHK just a scripting engine?. I've never looked into it, but i didn't think it would be classed as a programming language. It's a scripting language. I also don't think it as advanced as c++ and can do everything c++ can. Once again i could be wrong.

[evanxxxm]

ChingChong23@
AHK...ehmm...i dont know how to determine what is scripting/programming language
as we all know, all languages are based on low level language like machine code, asm..etc
then some "guy" make those low level language easier to read and write
then some "guy" use partially C data base, to create C++
and then right now, there is another "guy" by using C++ to create a completely new language

its kind of like:
A sell cookies
B buys cookies from A, add some chocolate chips on it, then sell cookies
C buys cookies from B, package it nicely, then sell cookies
so u may ask, who is selling cookies?
all of them
who is making cookies?
none of them, they are all based on the cookie factory (asm, machine code)

also, AHK can DLLcall, which leads to AHK can basically do every application function that existing DLLcall can do
and recently, some guy shows "as a prove of concept" even make a server base and email client on AHK language by using the newly translated COM to ahk

next, by defination

A scripting language, script language or extension language, is a programming language that controls a software application. -- wiki (other websites defination similar)

so basically scripting language falls under the programming language family
kind of like the cat = animal, but animal != cat
2nd, does AHK controls a software application? i thought it is just a C++ compiler with different syntax

[joek]

Excellent, I see you've all given me plenty of material to illustrate a programmers character traits, even a small example like my 9 steps shows you a heap about the character of programmers in general, no offense meant to anyone.

Programmers can over-analysis data to the degree where they actually miss the original point; the old "can't see the forest for all those pesky trees" syndrome.

Programmers are often highly competitive with each other and can spend large amounts of time recoding someone else 30 line routine into a 3 line routine.

Programmers are rather elitist; what you code in C?, I'm better than you cause I code in assembler and the next one says assembler is for babies, I hand optimize my hex bytes and so forth...

Programmers can become very set in their ways; especially when they've done it for a while.

Programmers have a love/hate relationship with users, we need them cause they show that we can create things others appreciate and yet they annoy us with their stupid questions and demands on our time.

Programmers do like to be part of a community and are happy to help and work with others as long as it helps fulfill the previous points.

I'm just having a bit of fun with yuh all
Oh yeah and the last one; programmers have a odd scene of humor *grinz*

[unknownone]

Originally Posted by evanxxxm

ChingChong23@
AHK...ehmm...
...
2nd, does AHK controls a software application? i thought it is just a C++ compiler with different syntax

The terms Programming and Programmer are so broad that they apply to almost anyone who uses a computer beyond web browsing and using office these days. Someone is hardly a 'programmer' because they can use an inbuilt functionality of an application, say for example, using macros in microsoft office. The clear distinction here is the user is only defining a set of commands for the program to run, but isn't coding any logic behind them (although, the ability to do so is there, using VBA).

Autohotkey defines a simple set of macros in a similar way, but outside of a specific application and on your machine. You can use it simply to emulate mouse and keyboard events, that isn't programming. Like VBA though, AHK is capable of alot more. It's a turing complete, so it's capable of anything in theory. If you're using ahk in a way that you are implementing logic rather than a list of values, then yes, consider that programming.

AHK is a scripting language. It's an application that already has a set of defined functions, and an ahk script is just a list of parameters to give to the program, but those instructions are interpreted on the fly, not compiled like C++ (ie, you need AHK installed to run ahk scripts).
Scripting languages ARE programming languages, they just have limitations on what they can do due to the application they run in. If you start being arsey about differentiating scripting and programming languages, where do you draw the line? By that logic, you could conclude that all interpreted languages are also not languages either - except you'd be wrong again, because all interpreted languages can be compiled too. Similarly, you can make a compiler for any scripting language should you wish to, but the choice to make them interpreted is usually quite apparent, there are advantages to doing so.

The problem with some scripting languages like AHK is they become what I call "Language Bloats". The intial aim of AHK was to set out about defining a simple set of macros for emulating user input etc, but as it's users realise that it doesn't quite meet all their demands, the language begins to expand and implement more and more features, up to the point where it becomes very capable, and as you mentioned, AHK implements a DLLCall() etc.

The problem here is, all the logic was already available from the start in C, and MrHotkey has just re-invented the wheel. In C, you could emulate keyboard events with SendInput, and AHK hardly makes a massive improvement on that. For anything else, it actually becomes more of a pain in the arse to code things in AHK, for instance, using DLLCall(), you need to redefine all your functions to call, aswell as all the types they take as arguments, because AHK is a weakly typed language whose types don't coincide with C's.

With that in mind, nobody would code a server in AHK for practical reasons. Whoever has done is doing it purely for fun, and to demonstrate that it's possible, but it's not practical. That's the difference -a 'real programmer' knows this, and knows that AHK is usually not the best tool for the job - it's great for making macros to an extent, but it's not a good language for programming applications.

/rant

[evanxxxm]

unknownone@
agreed
pretty concise on the nature about AHK, something quick and easy for macros or simple instructions
AHK is implanting more and more features
which in some case, people translate existing C/C++ libraries to AHK
or even write a complete new function
of course, C/C++ is not stuck too, they also have people continue writing/improving libraries

The problem here is, all the logic was already available from the start in C, and MrHotkey has just re-invented the wheel. In C, you could emulate keyboard events with SendInput, and AHK hardly makes a massive improvement on that. For anything else, it actually becomes more of a pain in the arse to code things in AHK, for instance, using DLLCall()

as far as i have discovered AHK and C++ so far, all C++ functions are available in AHK (not referring to new libraries after 2003, thats why people are translating them).

and i dont have problems just because C++/AHK's logic is already exists in C. improvements, i am not sure how, but for simple functions like Cout, pause or SendRawKey, u wont be expecting much, but of course AHK has 6+ different ways to simulate a click/key so as other programming languages.

and i also dont have problems with using DLLcall and considered that as weak, because as DLL is nothing but equations and functions inside, which is like a library. thus, nothing wrong with using a library/DLLcall

AHK is a scripting language. It's an application that already has a set of defined functions, and an ahk script is just a list of parameters to give to the program, but those instructions are interpreted on the fly, not compiled like C++ (ie, you need AHK installed to run ahk scripts).

i looked into AHK open sources before, its nothing but C++ scripts and libraries
and u are probably right, u write AHK, when compile, it interpreted those "AHK syntax" to C++ functions, then output as a EXE
btw, AHK script requires AHK to installed to run
so as C++ script requires some sort of compiler to installed to run
AHK exe does not require AHK to installed to run
so as C++ exe does not require compiler to be installed

i created AHK programs/scripts so much more than C++
because:
1. AHK is for entertainment vs. C++ is for COSC class projects
2. i cares about appearance - GUI, C++ complicated structure discourage me, where as AHK can do the same thing with faster and simpler codes
3. by my needs, AHK is good enough for me. As comparsion to, my P4 WinXP laptop is good enough for me, i dont need a gaming system laptop to check email and type scripts.
4. after needs, if both languages can do the same thing. i look for something simple and fast to create. as comparison to, i dont use photoshop CS2 to make printscreen screenshots, i use the most basic - Paint.

in conclusion, my definition of programmer is people that create functions/equations to simulate certain actions/commands
so yes, i think people creating a sets of equations/functions in excel is a programmer (like the equations u can input in cell for math/Acct/Finance..etc)
so yes, people using the firefox tool-kit to develop plug-ins/extensions is a programmer
so yes, people that make a script/program as simple as "hello world!" or a x^y power function using loops is a programmer
but no, people that input values in a program (like calculator, type in some settings in my ELSEpath for example..) does not fit my programmer defination

[MushyPeas]

If writing a Hello World program qualifies a person to be called a programmer, that would in turn mean that anyone who is no good at programming but can still get text to print is to be considered a programmer.

I don't buy it.

Also on the AHK thing, can't the sourcecode still be retrieved from AHK executables? Why would that be if they were actually translated to machine code?
My guess is, AHK has a basic executable and embeds and possibly encrypts your script into that, decrypts it on runtime and then executes it.
If this is true then the AHK "program" you "compiled" is still only a script.
All of this is based on my limited knowledge of AHK, if you have information telling otherwise feel free to post it.