[Suggestion] Stop sellers from spam promoting in threads.

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by Luke

I've added a poll to this thread now, please vote as we are looking for more input from the community regarding this suggestion.

Thanks Luke.

[0x41^4]

Voted no in the poll @ made.

I completely agree that it is extremely annoying, however, in addition to it already being against the rules for sellers to self-promote in other sellers' sales threads, an outright ban will absolutely have unintended consequences. The two most obvious ones are:

1. By banning self-promotions entirely, it will inadvertently push sellers to invest more in "pay for promotions," which will lead to an influx of sponsored content that is less transparent and harder for members to identify as advertising.
   
2. It will also encourage sellers to use bots to promote their services, which will be more disruptive and harder to manage, and will flood threads with even more low-quality and irrelevant posts.

It comes down to the saying "better the devil you know than the devil you don't." Ultimately, allowing controlled self-promotion is the lesser evil compared to the potential rise in less transparent and more disruptive promotion methods.

[Callum]

Hey,

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

1. By banning self-promotions entirely, it will inadvertently push sellers to invest more in "pay for promotions," which will lead to an influx of sponsored content that is less transparent and harder for members to identify as advertising.
   
   Just curious, do you have any examples of such promotions? I had a think and a browse and couldn't find anything similar.
   
   
2. It will also encourage sellers to use bots to promote their services, which will be more disruptive and harder to manage, and will flood threads with even more low-quality and irrelevant posts.
   
   Easily rectifiable with the amount of staff the forum has manning TBM already. You could even push that a step further and increase forum security for these specific sections (I.E, captcha request if creating a post within TBM / Hack sections when having certain keywords flagged) Of course, you won't stop every bot nor spammer, but it mitigates the majority. With the captcha technology already available, plus the developers elitepvpers use internally, I can't see this point being a problem at all. If anything, it'll just slightly increase moderators' workload.

As another user previously mentioned in this thread, I completely agree with the idea that sellers have the ability to create their own thread(s), bump it as they see fit, advertise in their signature, and that really should be it. You begin to tread in muddy waters when you allow users to promote their cheats in threads with users asking which cheat is the best or most popular, as every promotor thinks the one they're promoting is the best. It should be up to the user to browse and make their own choice as they see fit, and not being coerced into making a purchase they otherwise wouldn't have made should they have browsed themselves. This is also a textbook way to incite flame wars and scamming accusations from seller to seller in a desperate bid to prove they're the best.

Leave it to the user to decide. The world is already progressing at an alarming rate in terms of pushing unwanted advertisements, and I think elitepvpers would benefit and stand out themselves not being a part of it.


Regards,

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Voted no in the poll @ made.

I completely agree that it is extremely annoying, however, in addition to it already being against the rules for sellers to self-promote in other sellers' sales threads, an outright ban will absolutely have unintended consequences. The two most obvious ones are:

1. By banning self-promotions entirely, it will inadvertently push sellers to invest more in "pay for promotions," which will lead to an influx of sponsored content that is less transparent and harder for members to identify as advertising.
   
2. It will also encourage sellers to use bots to promote their services, which will be more disruptive and harder to manage, and will flood threads with even more low-quality and irrelevant posts.

It comes down to the saying "better the devil you know than the devil you don't." Ultimately, allowing controlled self-promotion is the lesser evil compared to the potential rise in less transparent and more disruptive promotion methods.

I think paid promotions is a good thing! When we talk paid promotions on epvp it is some of the things that are keeping the whole Forum working, honestly i think it's something that sellers also should pay for, if they want the extra promoting on here.

When we are talking about people abusing the system here on epvp, i think it really clear that no evil should be here.
That might be easier said than done, but who says the promotions with bots and adertisements with bots isn't going to get worse just because epvp allow some of the "bigger" sellers spam promote their services all around the Forum.

I honestly think Forums in general need to keep up with the outside world and part of that is fighting bots and getting more moderators to keep an eye out on the Forums.

Also everyone that is using this Forum, can easily see if a person with no reputation and a new account is recommending something, is kinda fishy.

When it all comes down to it, i made this suggestion because threads that people make at the moment! Is getting flooded with sellers promoting their own services/shops, which makes it really hard for someone who is asking "What cheat is the best" to actually get a valid response from some unbiased opinion.

[0x41^4]

Originally Posted by Callum

snip

Just curious, do you have any examples of such promotions? I had a think and a browse and couldn't find anything similar.

Weird, literally the first thread I picked (took 30 seconds) demonstrates <- example.
Additionally, outside of TBM, spend a week in any shooter subforum and you'll see how common it is.

Easily rectifiable with the amount of staff the forum has manning TBM already. You could even push that a step further and increase forum security for these specific sections (I.E, captcha request if creating a post within TBM / Hack sections when having certain keywords flagged) Of course, you won't stop every bot nor spammer, but it mitigates the majority. With the captcha technology already available, plus the developers elitepvpers use internally, I can't see this point being a problem at all. If anything, it'll just slightly increase moderators' workload.

"The amount of staff" is an ambitious statement. TBM is far from being adequately staffed. It's full with violations, and currently, two out of the four market team members handle (based on what I see) 90% of the reports. Now, you're expecting them to scout for additional violations?

Unless Luke can design a self-hosted solution for maintaining captcha requests, implementing this will incur additional costs. Also, if you remove the ability for sellers to self-promote, they'll likely stop subscribing to premium/elite plans, which will decrease site revenue. This exact thing caused OC and S7S to fail.

As another user previously mentioned in this thread, I completely agree with the idea that sellers have the ability to create their own thread(s), bump it as they see fit, advertise in their signature, and that really should be it. You begin to tread in muddy waters when you allow users to promote their cheats in threads with users asking which cheat is the best or most popular, as every promotor thinks the one they're promoting is the best. It should be up to the user to browse and make their own choice as they see fit, and not being coerced into making a purchase they otherwise wouldn't have made should they have browsed themselves. This is also a textbook way to incite flame wars and scamming accusations from seller to seller in a desperate bid to prove they're the best.

History does not support this idea, lol.

The suggestion that sellers should only promote through their own threads, signatures, and bumps sounds ideal in theory. But it fails to consider the practical reality. Allowing users to promote in response to queries does not inherently coerce purchases. Instead, it provides visibility and choice. If staff strictly control these interactions, it will lead to covert promotions (paid for promotions), resulting in less transparency, more user frustration, and undermines your entire theory.

I encourage you to study the displacement of leaders throughout history to see unintended consequences. For example, during the war on drugs in the 70s and 80s in the U.S., the crackdown on major drug cartels led to the fragmentation of these organizations into smaller, more violent groups. Now, before you dismiss the similarity because sellers aren't drug dealers and violent offenders, remember that a lot of these people make their livelihood on epvp, selling products. If sellers can't exist outside of TBM, they'll turn to paying people to say their product is the best, use bots, and other disruptive methods. Banning self-promotion entirely will fragment and scatter promotional activities into more disruptive and less manageable methods.

Originally Posted by lort1234

snip

I think you've misunderstood what "paid promotions" means in this context.

Sellers paying or offering compensation to their customers to spam the forum claiming their service is the best is not an activity that should be encouraged for obvious reasons.

When we are talking about people abusing the system here on epvp, i think it really clear that no evil should be here.
That might be easier said than done, but who says the promotions with bots and adertisements with bots isn't going to get worse just because epvp allow some of the "bigger" sellers spam promote their services all around the Forum.

See above.

Also everyone that is using this Forum, can easily see if a person with no reputation and a new account is recommending something, is kinda fishy.

Most trade/market staff, as well as those who have been in such roles on large communities, would disagree with this perspective. Users frequently fall victim to even the most blatant scammers. One of the most notorious scammers we've encountered here (Choron) managed to steal tens of thousands of dollars from victims using fake accounts and identical pictures from one of the largest cheat providers in the scene, by simply adding his watermark, and was able to continue scamming here for well over a year.

* Please don't misunderstand my position. I agree with both of you that repeated self-promotion within a thread is annoying. However, when I evaluate the pros and cons of the proposed suggestion, I see more cons than pros. I feel that a fair compromise would be to limit the content of self-promotional posts. For example, we could require the use of spoiler tags, prohibit terms like "best," and then revisit further additions to the rule.

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

I think you've misunderstood what "paid promotions" means in this context.

Sellers paying or offering compensation to their customers to spam the forum claiming their service is the best is not an activity that should be encouraged for obvious reasons.

I wasn't misunderstanding what you meant by it, as i already stated these kinds of "Evils" as you mention them, don't belong here and shouldn't be here. If a provider wanna promote there are multiple ways of doing it (The right way).

But as i already said, we don't know it will get worse and we definitely do not know it wont get worse just because we allow these providers to spam promote users threads. So because of that i don't see this reason to be a good enough reason to not force rules that doesn't allow providers to promote out of the black market section of each Forum section.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

See above.

I am not even gonna respond to what you are referring here, using a historical event in a big country, and compare it to a situation we "could" have here as you said, isn't ideal in any way.

If people wanna abuse the system they will, they will always find a way. I just think that it going to happen if we allow providers to spam promote or if we won't allow it. And as you said your self it is already a thing that is happening, we need more moderators and better tools like Captcha and possible even some kind of AI algorithm to detect key words.

Elitepvpers need to move forward, not backwards. If we don't do anything about this now i think it will escalate, as we do see that now with more and more providers spam promoting in users threads.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Most trade/market staff, as well as those who have been in such roles on large communities, would disagree with this perspective. Users frequently fall victim to even the most blatant scammers. One of the most notorious scammers we've encountered here (Choron) managed to steal tens of thousands of dollars from victims using fake accounts and identical pictures from one of the largest cheat providers in the scene, by simply adding his watermark, and was able to continue scamming here for well over a year.

* Please don't misunderstand my position. I agree with both of you that repeated self-promotion within a thread is annoying. However, when I evaluate the pros and cons of the proposed suggestion, I see more cons than pros. I feel that a fair compromise would be to limit the content of self-promotional posts. For example, we could require the use of spoiler tags, prohibit terms like "best," and then revisit further additions to the rule.

Yes sometimes people are ignorant and do fall victim of these scams, but i do believe the majority of the Forum have a understanding of not trusting people with no visible reputation of any kind.

I get that you see our side of the subject, and i do also see your side of it. I just thing that this is something Epvp needs to do, and move forward with restricting the these kinds of things and it benefits no one here other than money hungry sellers.

I think the if there should be a compromise on this:

1. Don't allow providers/sellers to promote is the normal threads outside of the black market, unless the user specific ask a provider/seller what they sell/offer.
2. Make a new sub Forum like the black market, but where providers/sellers are able to showcase their products with video, guides, explanations and sale posts. This would allow any user to swiftly browse the sub Forum for something they are looking for. (Only positive posts should be in here, it should be a place where providers can post without dealing with users experiences.)
3. Make a sub Forum for threads that are for "Experiences/reviews" this should only for be users that have a confirmed trade on epvp with said provider/seller. (This should only be a place where the OP and provider/seller can talk about experience/review, possible how to improve or give feedback.

If these changes where made i think it would benefit both the users of epvp and also the providers/sellers, in such a degree that there would be no need to do these promotions against epvp rules, and also have a more dynamic Forum where no one is left unheard in any way relation to the topic.

This might be another possible suggestion. @

[Callum]

I agree with both sides.

Having a sub-category dedicated to users searching for providers, or, even just a sticky thread in TBM sections dedicated solely to requesting certain features and having providers comment there (similar to how private-server sections, mainly Silkroad, have a sticky thread where the purpose is to recruit private-server staff based on their knowledge and expertise) would circumvent a few issues, would be cost effective, and require minimal effort on the backend to deploy.

There are accounts that exist on this forum where their only purpose is to find any thread and post their cheat in. Whether their cheat fills the users needs or wants or not, or whether it is on/off topic, they'll still refer them to their cheat and website. At least if it's in one sticky thread(s) it's collated and manageable, then limit posts elsewhere via rule adjustments or flagging keywords in posts which aren't posted within TBM.

Users have the ability to advertise in various ways on the website, and with the introduction of Elite this provides even more additional benefits and means to do so. Allowing users to consistently post their cheat in any given thread, to me, seems to defeat the purpose of the following;

- Auto-Bumps can also be used for the free bumps

- Permission to create an additional resell thread - even if there is already a thread from another seller

As auto-bumps won't matter to a non-elite user, they will just spam other threads telling them to check their signature, which is also a similar case to the second quote, creating an additional resell thread. If they're posting when/where they want, it creates no incentive to purchase these premium memberships in their eyes when they have free will to plug their cheat wherever, and whenever, they wish.

[DeprimereShop]

Despite being a seller on this platform, I truly do find the constant spamming of self promotion as demoralizing when checking the latest posts. Often times it comes down to a handful of individuals being the greatest offenders, and I am not stating that I am perfect either, but I would be open to seeing a rule change.

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by DeprimereShop

Despite being a seller on this platform, I truly do find the constant spamming of self promotion as demoralizing when checking the latest posts. Often times it comes down to a handful of individuals being the greatest offenders, and I am not stating that I am perfect either, but I would be open to seeing a rule change.

What do you think about having a sub Forum, like i suggested above then?

[DeprimereShop]

Originally Posted by lort1234

What do you think about having a sub Forum, like i suggested above then?

I'd recommend keeping the sub forums as is.

Regarding posts from active sellers on non-black market threads .. I'd personally just prefer to see them list the actual product name they're referring versus "check out my post" or "join my discord."

The overall intention I am fine with but enforce hardened rules regarding the actual quality of the post.

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by DeprimereShop

I'd recommend keeping the sub forums as is.

Regarding posts from active sellers on non-black market threads .. I'd personally just prefer to see them list the actual product name they're referring versus "check out my post" or "join my discord."

The overall intention I am fine with but enforce hardened rules regarding the actual quality of the post.

Hmm i don’t see the difference from “check my bio” or “My shop” to saying the products name of your own stuff, the whole point on this suggestion to make find a way or ban the way that providers/sellers spam promote every thread on the Forum.

Changing the way that it’s promote doesn’t change anything.

The idea with sub Forums was so providers/sellers was able to promote and also users was able to look though promotions to someting that suits their needs.

I think for the highest quality posts, we need to stop providers/sellers from promoting their own stuff, as they will ofcouse always say their product is the best or right one for the users.

[Callum]

Whilst we're on the topic, a way to differentiate verified purchasers in comparison to just random accounts made up by the provider to vouch for their own cheat would, I suppose, in theory be nice. However, I have no idea how to implement this. I've done some browsing today and have noticed more than a handful of 'strange' accounts. Of course, you can report them, but without the aforementioned rule changes (no advertising in threads anymore) they'll just continue to pop up.

[lort1234]

Originally Posted by Callum

Whilst we're on the topic, a way to differentiate verified purchasers in comparison to just random accounts made up by the provider to vouch for their own cheat would, I suppose, in theory be nice. However, I have no idea how to implement this. I've done some browsing today and have noticed more than a handful of 'strange' accounts. Of course, you can report them, but without the aforementioned rule changes (no advertising in threads anymore) they'll just continue to pop up.

One way out differentiering it would be to have 2 kinds of verified purchases, one one for trusted or people with alot of reputation on here and one for new users with low reputation.

Another way to stop generated/alt accounts from promoting, would be to not allow links or refers to bio. But simply just saying the name of a product, if recommending one.

[DeprimereShop]

Originally Posted by Callum

I agree with both sides.

Having a sub-category dedicated to users searching for providers, or, even just a sticky thread in TBM sections dedicated solely to requesting certain features and having providers comment there (similar to how private-server sections, mainly Silkroad, have a sticky thread where the purpose is to recruit private-server staff based on their knowledge and expertise) would circumvent a few issues, would be cost effective, and require minimal effort on the backend to deploy.

There are accounts that exist on this forum where their only purpose is to find any thread and post their cheat in. Whether their cheat fills the users needs or wants or not, or whether it is on/off topic, they'll still refer them to their cheat and website. At least if it's in one sticky thread(s) it's collated and manageable, then limit posts elsewhere via rule adjustments or flagging keywords in posts which aren't posted within TBM.

Users have the ability to advertise in various ways on the website, and with the introduction of Elite this provides even more additional benefits and means to do so. Allowing users to consistently post their cheat in any given thread, to me, seems to defeat the purpose of the following;





As auto-bumps won't matter to a non-elite user, they will just spam other threads telling them to check their signature, which is also a similar case to the second quote, creating an additional resell thread. If they're posting when/where they want, it creates no incentive to purchase these premium memberships in their eyes when they have free will to plug their cheat wherever, and whenever, they wish.

Originally Posted by 0x41^4

Weird, literally the first thread I picked (took 30 seconds) demonstrates fake promotions / vouches <- example.
Additionally, outside of TBM, spend a week in any shooter subforum and you'll see how common it is.



"The amount of staff" is an ambitious statement. TBM is far from being adequately staffed. It's full with violations, and currently, two out of the four market team members handle (based on what I see) 90% of the reports. Now, you're expecting them to scout for additional violations?

Unless Luke can design a self-hosted solution for maintaining captcha requests, implementing this will incur additional costs. Also, if you remove the ability for sellers to self-promote, they'll likely stop subscribing to premium/elite plans, which will decrease site revenue. This exact thing caused OC and S7S to fail.



History does not support this idea, lol.

The suggestion that sellers should only promote through their own threads, signatures, and bumps sounds ideal in theory. But it fails to consider the practical reality. Allowing users to promote in response to queries does not inherently coerce purchases. Instead, it provides visibility and choice. If staff strictly control these interactions, it will lead to covert promotions (paid for promotions), resulting in less transparency, more user frustration, and undermines your entire theory.

I encourage you to study the displacement of leaders throughout history to see unintended consequences. For example, during the war on drugs in the 70s and 80s in the U.S., the crackdown on major drug cartels led to the fragmentation of these organizations into smaller, more violent groups. Now, before you dismiss the similarity because sellers aren't drug dealers and violent offenders, remember that a lot of these people make their livelihood on epvp, selling products. If sellers can't exist outside of TBM, they'll turn to paying people to say their product is the best, use bots, and other disruptive methods. Banning self-promotion entirely will fragment and scatter promotional activities into more disruptive and less manageable methods.



I think you've misunderstood what "paid promotions" means in this context.

Sellers paying or offering compensation to their customers to spam the forum claiming their service is the best is not an activity that should be encouraged for obvious reasons.



See above.



Most trade/market staff, as well as those who have been in such roles on large communities, would disagree with this perspective. Users frequently fall victim to even the most blatant scammers. One of the most notorious scammers we've encountered here (Choron) managed to steal tens of thousands of dollars from victims using fake accounts and identical pictures from one of the largest cheat providers in the scene, by simply adding his watermark, and was able to continue scamming here for well over a year.

* Please don't misunderstand my position. I agree with both of you that repeated self-promotion within a thread is annoying. However, when I evaluate the pros and cons of the proposed suggestion, I see more cons than pros. I feel that a fair compromise would be to limit the content of self-promotional posts. For example, we could require the use of spoiler tags, prohibit terms like "best," and then revisit further additions to the rule.

Would the creation of an additional paid role, with a significantly higher price than Elite, make sense to introduce if it was the only role that allowed such promotional behavior?

Not advocating for it, but just trying to think through how the low quality spam could be corrected while protecting the revenue that these individuals may provide EPVP.

[Callum]

Originally Posted by DeprimereShop

Would the creation of an additional paid role, with a significantly higher price than Elite, make sense to introduce if it was the only role that allowed such promotional behavior?

Not advocating for it, but just trying to think through how the low quality spam could be corrected while protecting the revenue that these individuals may provide EPVP.

This was a thought I initially had. I guess it's something for administration to bring up in their next discussion