P4Ns Dev Log

[KraHen]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I must say I am amazingly disappointed after I read what jewels is, it's the same trash that plagues the mobile gaming scene. As someone who's making a living out of large mobile games I know I sound like a hypocrite, but IMO this is way overboard the private server scene. I understand that you're trying to convert DAU you already have to Jewels from Apex, and I find that very smart and disgusting at the same time. I would really, really like to see it thrive, but not in the form of a private server "feature", I'm pretty sure you could package it somehow else and still acquire the same number of users that would convert from CO.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by KraHen

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I must say I am amazingly disappointed after I read what jewels is, it's the same trash that plagues the mobile gaming scene. As someone who's making a living out of large mobile games I know I sound like a hypocrite, but IMO this is way overboard the private server scene. I understand that you're trying to convert DAU you already have to Jewels from Apex, and I find that very smart and disgusting at the same time. I would really, really like to see it thrive, but not in the form of a private server "feature", I'm pretty sure you could package it somehow else and still acquire the same number of users that would convert from CO.

I can understand your concerns but I think you may be at least partially misunderstanding what jewels are for.

We already have donation options in apex/triumph. They are a bit clunky for some users because when you donate you get a fixed list of items based on how much you spend. If you dont want that new vip garment? too bad, you get it and have to find a player willing to buy it.

In regards to the first use case of jewels, the closest analogy I can give is Riot Points in league of Legends. You'll still be able to donate through our site to receive a fixed # of jewels per dollar and can then spend those jewels in a donation shop to purchase VIP tokens, garments or other similar stuff we already offer. It simply streamlines the experience for players so they know exactly what they are getting.

The jewels ICO gives us funding to develop a secure backend for crypto transactions, a provably fair gambling backend and to develop a series of gambling mini games (slot machines, blackjack, etcetc). Those mini games can be played using either CP or Jewels (real life gambling) but the main distinction between them and other products is that they will be provably fair. For those not directly familiar with the concept it basically means that there will be a public seed for each round of gambling you can use after each roll of the dice or spin of the wheel to verify that we sent you accurate results (no fake RNG to boost house edge).

Those gambling mini games will be available inside our servers as new content to our player (again worth stressing they will be playable with CP as well, not just the jewels currency) as well as being licensed in other servers/games, on their own independent gambling website and mobile apps.



As you're already aware, jewels itself is a crypto currency. If you want to withdraw it from the game and turn it into USD, you are welcome to do so. This is something I've never seen another conquer server do. Combined with the concept of provably fair gambling, I feel it gives players something really unique that adds to the game experience. Being able to fund a number of mini games being developed in addition to the rest provides so much more content than would be possible if I was self funding all of the development myself.




Anyways, enough of me ranting. Was there a specific point of mine you disagree with or are you just sad to see a premium currency be used? I feel the approach we're taking is much more fair and transparent to players than the old "donate 20 bux and you get these 3 items" but I'd be happy to discuss any concerns.

[KraHen]

I don't have an issue with premium currency, we've all been there, done that. What I have an issue with is anonymous online gambling. How many of your DAUs are of verifiable legal age in this matter? Even if what you're doing might technically - legally - not be gambling due to the usage of the cryptocurrency (or it might be, I'm not familiar with bitcoin/cryptocurrency gambling laws), it is still very shady. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the recent CSGOLotto incident, this can become a major clusterfuck. I just think it is immoral even in their case (basically allowing 12 y/o kids to gamble), when the API they used was public. You are developing a private server, already on a very grey legal area, I'm not sure that this will help your case in the slightest. Also the fact that it allows the server to be funded is not a reason, nor an excuse to this.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by KraHen

I don't have an issue with premium currency, we've all been there, done that. What I have an issue with is anonymous online gambling. How many of your DAUs are of verifiable legal age in this matter? Even if what you're doing might technically - legally - not be gambling due to the usage of the cryptocurrency (or it might be, I'm not familiar with bitcoin/cryptocurrency gambling laws), it is still very shady. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the recent CSGOLotto incident, this can become a major clusterfuck. I just think it is immoral even in their case (basically allowing 12 y/o kids to gamble), when the API they used was public. You are developing a private server, already on a very grey legal area, I'm not sure that this will help your case in the slightest. Also the fact that it allows the server to be funded is not a reason, nor an excuse to this.

Maybe I've been around video games too long but to me there's no difference between someone gambling with CP they've earned from killing a monster or for Jewels they traded items to a player for. I've had to ban more than enough real life sales on my projects to know that CPs are already viewed as being 'cash' to many players (even if you can earn it fairly easy in game) so while I definitely understand your concerns it just seems to me that making what's already there as fair and transparent as possible is a good thing rather than a scary one.

Situation 1: Player buys jewels through paypal. Plays Provably fair RNG games. Loses everything.
Situation 2: Player buys CPs through paypal. Plays RNG games, loses everything.
Situation 3: Player earns jewels by playing the game and trading with others. Plays RNG games, loses everything.
Situation 3: Player earns CPs through playing the game. Plays RNG games, loses everything.

No matter which situation I view (looking only at negative outcomes here), the situation remains the same. You have something you valued, you chose to gamble it and you lost. The difference being that with jewels you have proper validation of every spin/roll/etc to prove we didn't cheat the results and you have a legal method of withdrawing the currency (vs having to sell on blackmarket and possibly get banned)

[KraHen]

Originally Posted by pro4never

Maybe I've been around video games too long but to me there's no difference between someone gambling with CP they've earned from killing a monster or for Jewels they traded items to a player for. I've had to ban more than enough real life sales on my projects to know that CPs are already viewed as being 'cash' to many players (even if you can earn it fairly easy in game) so while I definitely understand your concerns it just seems to me that making what's already there as fair and transparent as possible is a good thing rather than a scary one.

Oh but they are very different, you said it yourself, jewels can be converted to cash easily. Trading/selling CPs or whatever to other players for real cash takes much more effort, and is against the tos of most games (not sure in your case). You are making it transparent sure, but also immensely more accessible - and that is where the danger lies.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by KraHen

Oh but they are very different, you said it yourself, jewels can be converted to cash easily. Trading/selling CPs or whatever to other players for real cash takes much more effort, and is against the tos of most games (not sure in your case). You are making it transparent sure, but also immensely more accessible - and that is where the danger lies.

I think it's fair to say we just have very different viewpoints. To me what you're saying is all positives where from your viewpoint they are not.

Legitimizing something (withdrawing currency to cash) that was once difficult and banned strengthens the in-game economy (more players, more people trading, more use of currency)

Taking existing gaming concepts (conquer is full of RNG where you could lose 'everything') and making them more fair and transparent makes the game less punishing and frustrating to players.

It's also worth mentioning that children would have difficulty obtaining mature jewels with which they could trade/sell/withdraw. Things done through paypal are considered immature due to risk of chargeback and cannot be withdrawn or traded between players. Absolutely no difference between paying for CP and paying for Jewels under those conditions. The only difference comes into play if the jewels are proven mature. This means the period during which a chargeback can be processed has ended or they were loaded using a non-refundable method such as western union or were purchased on a crypto exchange.

At the end of the day though, we're a business. This is what makes the most sense to start to push beyond conquer and slowly break out of the niche we've carved. It allows us to leverage our existing player base to bring in funds to hire more developers and in turn to provide our players with a ton of new content and functionality. To me that's exciting, to you it's scary. I can respect your opinion without necessarily sharing it myself.

[KraHen]

Originally Posted by pro4never

At the end of the day though, we're a business.

While I understand and respect that, there goes the last bastion of the CO private server development scene in my eyes - but that's not relevant to this topic, let's keep going.

Originally Posted by pro4never

This is what makes the most sense to start to push beyond conquer and slowly break out of the niche we've carved. It allows us to leverage our existing player base to bring in funds to hire more developers and in turn to provide our players with a ton of new content and functionality.

I agree with this, but why do you have to integrate it with the game? Can't you just advertise it to your existing community and keep it separate? What if it grows big? Do you really want to be the gambling company that got started out in a private server and on totally shaky legal grounds?

Originally Posted by pro4never

To me that's exciting, to you it's scary.

It is not scary, it's unprofessional and I think it's generally a bad idea for the future of the business. I have seen similar cases with way more legitimized circumstances and lighter ties to gambling happen in the past few years and they never end well in the long run.

Originally Posted by pro4never

I can respect your opinion without necessarily sharing it myself.

Likewise.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by KraHen

While I understand and agree with this, why do you have to integrate it with the game? Can't you just advertise it to your existing community and keep it separate? What if it grows big? Do you really want to be the gambling company that got started out in a private server and on totally shaky legal grounds?

It's worth mentioning the separation from a legal perspective yes.


Jewels will be its own corporation and will be responsible for all crypto and app development. it will not be associated with the servers in any way. It will then license the use of those apps to various project including apex and our new heroes server in addition to any other games or servers we can attract to the project.


Our conquer servers will integrate jewels as a premium currency which can be bought using the same methods already in place (paypal and various paymentwall subprocessors) to purchase jewels directly from the server's paypal fund (5% of the total blockchain, 2 million coins) and those jewels will be able to be used to purchase in game items. This means vip tokens, garments, etc no different than how we normally do things, just a much more streamlined version. That paypal fund can then be replenished by purchasing jewels from various crypto exchanges. It's worth keeping in mind that jewel transactions inside of the conquer servers are completely internal. All jewels inside the apex/heroes bubble belong to us the same as CPs you purchase would and can be recovered. Only matured jewels can be withdrawn to other wallets/exchanges.


Once the gambling apps are developed they will be embedded into our servers using a html5 webview. You will then be able to link your conquer account to your jewels wallet (this allows your bet transactions to be authorized based on your conquer account). All gambling logic and jewel balances in this case are completely separate from conquer. You're just embedding a stylized version of the jewels gambling website into the conquer servers. Because of that separation it can easily be added to other game or server projects very easily without having to have access to their account database.

The tricky part with that is we DO plan to allow 'free play' in the gambling site. When dealing with conquer accounts, that will be a CP balance which you can shift between your conquer account and your wallet (all gambling MUST be handled and validated through the jewels project, separately from the server). It will require a bit more work to make secure and user friendly but will be necessary. Other accounts not related to conquer will be allowed to define their own 'free play' currency and accounts not linked to other projects will simply use free tokens in those games which will of course hold no value.

By decoupling the jewels side of things and the conquer side of things it means the jewels project is not only legally separated but allows for future expansion. Lets say just for argument that a wow server wants to integrate itself. Blizzard has an active history going after server projects but we would still be able to support that partnership and would be able to allow their freeplay tokens to be based on their character's gold balance for example without having to change anything in how the project is developed. We would just have to link them into our API, validate things are being handled properly and then allow them to embed the games into their own web view.

Originally Posted by KraHen

While I understand and respect that, there goes the last bastion of the CO private server development scene in my eyes - but that's not relevant to this topic, let's keep going.

I'm of course biased towards myself but I think it's not a bad thing at all. We've had conquer servers for around a decade now and no one seems to be looking for new ways to innovate what that means. Developing for conquer has been my full time job and primary source of my family income for the past 2 years. It would be incredibly foolish of me to not branch out and diversify my development (it's unlikely I could make a living just running generic conquer server #12 in even a few years time). I'm forced to find new ways that conquer servers can be developed and can grow into the modern age of gaming.

I'm pretty damn proud of what we're working towards if for no reason other than that it is a real shift towards how conquer servers are monetized and run. I suppose the next year will show if it's a wise choice or not.

[Thorev]

Have you been in contact with AGCO yet? (Hint: )

[Best Coder 2014]

Originally Posted by Thorev

Have you been in contact with AGCO yet? (Hint: )

Well, he's running a Conquer Online private server, it's not like he's on the right side of the law anyways .

[Thorev]

Originally Posted by Best Coder 2014

Well, he's running a Conquer Online private server, it's not like he's on the right side of the law anyways .

Well his (3?) conquer servers will be making use of the gambling app(s) ("Jewels"), probably gonna try and sway other private servers as well to use it.

If you wanna start an official gambling service (not talking about **** like conquer lottery), your license(s) better be handled correctly or you can expect a lot more than a ****** C&D from TQ.

Not that I approve of having children gamble for cash anyway.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by Thorev

Well his (3?) conquer servers will be making use of the gambling app(s) ("Jewels"), probably gonna try and sway other private servers as well to use it.

If you wanna start an official gambling service (not talking about **** like conquer lottery), your license(s) better be handled correctly or you can expect a lot more than a ****** C&D from TQ.

Not that I approve of having children gamble for cash anyway.

That side of things will be handled by the jewels project, not myself. There are many countries where running such a service is fully legal and I would suspect the site and management for that will be done outside of Canada (although I see nothing in the link you submitted governing gambling with digital currencies with no monetary value).

I'm part of the jewels project simply because I have an existing audience and will be involved in developing some of their gambling games. I have nothing to do with the coin/wallet development or legal side of that project.

[Thorev]

Anybody who visits this thread, this section of ElitePVPers or Google things is going to do the math and see pro4never = Jewels.
(No matter how many times you yell it's not "associated").

The starting ground for "the company" Jewels (and Conquer Heroes) are funded by running illegal private conquer online servers and outside investors.

Your face is on it ( youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-z5ad0iGw )
Your illegal private conquer online server Apex is on it

Hundreds and thousands of active players can be called ~ 300 tops (including multiple accounts per player) a day after monitoring your websites player count for a while.

If you don't want stuff to be associated with your illegal private conquer online servers, don't put a link to the ICO on your Apex website or a video with your face for Jewels.

If you are willing to start a gambling service despite customers being below the legal age and are not shy to discuss moving your activities on a public forum to a country to avoid laws and licenses regarding it, I'm willing to shoot holes in every sentence you spit out.

[pro4never]

Originally Posted by Thorev

Anybody who visits this thread, this section of ElitePVPers or Google things is going to do the math and see pro4never = Jewels.
(No matter how many times you yell it's not "associated").

The starting ground for "the company" Jewels (and Conquer Heroes) are funded by running illegal private conquer online servers and outside investors.

Your face is on it ( youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-z5ad0iGw )
Your illegal private conquer online server Apex is on it

Hundreds and thousands of active players can be called ~ 300 tops (including multiple accounts per player) a day after monitoring your websites player count for a while.

If you don't want stuff to be associated with your illegal private conquer online servers, don't put a link to the ICO on your Apex website or a video with your face for Jewels.

If you are willing to start a gambling service despite customers being below the legal age and are not shy to discuss moving your activities on a public forum to a country to avoid laws and licenses regarding it, I'm willing to shoot holes in every sentence you spit out.

We're arguing semantics here.

TQ has never in their history gone after any PServer (there have been a few C&D letters many years ago but no further action taken). Our server side code is not illegal, it's distributing their client/modified client files which is. As proven by the past decade of copyright murkyness, even that would be fairly easy to overcome in some hypothetical situation where TQ started to care about private servers again.

I'm of course involved in the jewels project, I'm the face of the project and bringing the established first use case for the currency. I simply was stating that I'm not the one to ask regarding the coin itself as the currency is not being developed by me.


We get that you like to attack any project that gets developed but your arguments are really quite silly. We're simply making better, more engaging mini games to embed into the client which can be played using in-game currency or the equivalent of CP. The ICO raises funds for that development. Nothing as far as players concerns will be different between how things worked before and how things worked after.

[Thorev]

I'm just ******* with you man, I still don't care about CO. No need to go quiet