4Nova and Ramon - a detailed analysis

[Fabian12341]

Originally Posted by .Konst

Why is everyone putting so much weight on the fact that Ramon did RWT? How does this make someone any less of a capable Server Administrator/Developer? Two completely unrelated topics.

The problem is not that he did RWT. The problem lies within the toxic and almost childish way he endorses/handles it while in contrary his own ruleset strictly forbids it. It's hard to respect/take a rule seriously that is being controlled by somebody that is related to RWT in one of the most subtly provocative ways possible which also shines through to the ways he acts as a server owner.

[Exakan]

Originally Posted by .Konst

Why is everyone putting so much weight on the fact that Ramon did RWT? How does this make someone any less of a capable Server Administrator/Developer? Two completely unrelated topics.

The situation "an admin does RWT but bans his users for the same rule" has a specific term that proves if a server team is actually good or trustworthy. Server teams underlie specific rules, as example "don't play yourself to avoid a personal clash of interests", which happens too many times. Using the own role for personal benefits or acting above the own rules to gain advantages, especially in the materialistic/financial aspect, is a very big problem. It's called corruption.

[Madazar]

In my honest opinion BigMac should be fired cause of the rwt, where is the sense of this, if one of the gms doing sh*t. Well, I know Ramon is trying to make best for server but where is the respect for rules? Deleting macro rule after reporting one guy 500 times.
Nova is quite nice server but they have to "Rework" their rules, administration. Since 3 weeks I didnt see any of the ga/gms which did something in server for players for example events. Only the Touis is the ONLY one who is making something, and its imho good, that riddle event is nice but the rewards should be reworked. I am always parctipating in events and its really nice, i dont see any sense of playing on nova if there wouldnt be events.
I am sorry for my english but tried my best

[CrackEden]

Man, i just read the frist Points and this is so fkn bullshit i cant give me this **** till the end. 1.Ramon dont give a **** about RWT on his server where is the Problem, Trading is everything? RWT exists on every Server, why should he bann some people for this? 2.***kay dont talk about gifted things from Ramon, he talked about 75% who buy on the black-marked things from farmers. 3. This facts about the BP-LP shop, Reckless and so on , come from Ramon he was talking about this in all chat often! Its not his fault when you live behind the moon. Everyone knows about it. He often said the Reckless will be patched later with lower DMG. Ramon dont do anything right but, man you fkn flame him and talk so much falsehoods. Ceep your half-truths, go on Ancient and play with like 5fps or to 4Vision with the most toxic forehead players. See you all on 4Nova form your own opinion. Sorry for my bad englisch iam a Kartoffel.
Fin.

[zF4me]

#19
CrackEden
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Man, i just read the frist Points and this is so fkn bullshit i cant give me this **** till the end. 1.Ramon dont give a **** about RWT on his server where is the Problem, Trading is everything? RWT exists on every Server, why should he bann some people for this? 2.***kay dont talk about gifted things from Ramon, he talked about 75% who buy on the black-marked things from farmers. 3. This facts about the BP-LP shop, Reckless and so on , come from Ramon he was talking about this in all chat often! Its not his fault when you live behind the moon. Everyone knows about it. He often said the Reckless will be patched later with lower DMG. Ramon dont do anything right but, man you fkn flame him and talk so much falsehoods. Ceep your half-truths, go on Ancient and play with like 5fps or to 4Vision with the most toxic forehead players. See you all on 4Nova form your own opinion. Sorry for my bad englisch iam a Kartoffel.
Fin.

You are talking about falsehood, but why their are Screenshots as proof?.
And if everything is falsehood where is the statement from Ramon?

I played 4Nova and i need to say: the biggest problem on the server is an untrustworthly appear and the reason for this is Ramon.

Biggest example:
Rules: Macros are not allowed. someone use makro, ramon change rules.

What is his next step, allowing hacking?

If you searching 4nova on youtube, the first 3 videos you gonna find are : negative videos about 4nova.

4Nova Team is like the Gameforge team. The community is talking about problems but the Team is just ignoring them. Sorry for bad english i am just an alman.

[CrackEden]

You are talking about falsehood, but why their are Screenshots as proof?.

Hm, iam to lazy to destroy every "halftruth- proof". But if you want to talk about the:

Biggest example:
Rules: Macros are not allowed. someone use makro, ramon change rules.

Ramon never banned a player for macro unsing, neither friends nor enemies. Why should he ban one player just because you reporting him? He always said he ceep the tournaments clean and ban or kick macroplayers in tournaments. Now to your "proof of nothing", you always show just small clippings from the whole conversation and forget about that everyone can join Discord and can take a look at it??? A small screenshot to "proof" my point of view.



It was clearly about the tournament. I cant post the whole conversation but as i said you can search for the messages.

The community is talking about problems but the Team is just ignoring them.

Okay this is just a lie the team is working on every bug, change the Bok Maps if the playerbase complaining about i, and try to solve every single problem. You are crying just because he doesn't want to patch everything you want. You dont play alone on the server!
Your whole argumentation are small clippings, everyone should take a look on the server by himself.

[Madazar]

@
You are embarassing :" Just Pm me with your offer ill send you Pictures of the xbow on Discord.
Waffenset:

I also have 2,5k gold in stock."

a rwt player is talking XD, o m g XD

[CrackEden]

No big deal? Look at zFame. Where is the Problem?

[Fabian12341]

To clear some things up that might be a bit blurry for now:

There are no personal attacks towards Ramon in this report, anybody considering this an insult on a personal level should probably read the whole thing first and then start thinking again.

This was never meant to be published. Every GA except Ramon(obviously, since he is the matter of the subject) has been given the report 3 days prior to the publishing. We then found a similar reaction along the lines of "well we probably can get away with ignoring it since it comes from just a few people" and therefore decided to make it public after there was no response by them (this should be easily realized as a matter of higher priority so the response should resultate without forcing it e.g by saying "answer or we publish this"). After the release they soon realized that it was not an isolated case and it seems like something woke up their minds and they are starting to act - which basically was our only intention, shame it took a massive backlash from more than just a few people for them to realize this.

We still highly enjoy the server concept and spent an awful lot of time on it and will continue doing and promoting it if things were to take a positive turn but as long as these mischiefs occur we will take our distance from 4Nova.

We also did not provide proof for even more issues that we simply forgot to screenshot as they happened, so if any accusations of fake or out of context arguments come up, the 4Nova administration is kindly invited to expose those with the release of the full logs - namely especially July 24th around 18:00 (discord general chat should be easily followed since everybody can see it - at least what's left of it).
If you still think this is an open attack on the server just quit the discussion and keep no-braining. It is clearly stated that it refers to just one single GA and is not meant to represent a personal attack either. We even explicitly mentioned that the remaining GA's are doing an astonishingly good job.

[zF4me]

Okay this is just a lie the team is working on every bug, change the Bok Maps if the playerbase complaining about i, and try to solve every single problem. You are crying just because he doesn't want to patch everything you want. You dont play alone on the server!
Your whole argumentation are small clippings, everyone should take a look on the server by himself.

I think, if they realy would care about their comunity this Thread would never exist.
At least like Fabian said, the team had time to give a statement, but they dont care.
And i mean where is the statement now?! i am waiting

Btw. Das Dokument wurde Ursprünglich nicht dafür gefasst um es hier auf epvp zu veröffentlichen, sondern um es dem Team zugeben, damit sie ein Feedback haben. Jedoch haben diese, das Dokument gekonnt ignoriert und jetzt auf einmal kommen alle damit: ,, Das ist total übertrieben?''..Warum veröffentlicht ihr das jetzt?'' ,, Was ist euer Problem wtf voll assi!''

Ich meine was habt ihr erwartet?! Dieses Statement einfach zu vergessen so wie ihr?
Warum heuchelt ihr alle so rum?
Warum ist denn dieses Dokument so hart? Weil es dem Server schadet? Aber sind wir die jenigen, die in soviele Fettnäpfchen getreten sind oder war es Ramon? Ich verstehe einfach nicht was daran so hart ist, wenn man alles was eh schon jeder wusste noch einmal zusammenfast und online stellt wo es jeder lesen kann.
Ich glaube das wirklich harte an dem Dokument ist die Wahrheit zu akzeptieren.

[Sweaty1337]

I do not use Epvpers much, so I do not know whether there's a function to view the editing history of a post. If there is not I gonna ask you to refrain from editing your post for all intents and purposes. Falsifying information now, when the post has already gained traction would be all to simple. Merely a suggestion of course. I hope you see the irony in this.

"The problem lays within the person itself and not in the name."

You know, things are in fact a bit blurry for me right now, because how does that not spell out a blatant direct personal attack. Rather than the indirect attack it already was.
You wrote this account of your issues with the administration of 4Nova trying to sound as unbiased as possible just to have it climax in that particular sentence.
Freudian slip maybe?

I do not intend to discuss your whole report. I will say though that the discussion regarding rwt is moot at this point and rule enforcement was unsatisfactory. Favouritism however, took place in only the ever so minor degree. You can fight me on that if you so wish. I just think it was neglectable. I also did not profit from it myelf, right hand to ***. When reckless was taken out (which seemed likely because of the voting either way) I had 15 of them and 200k bonuspoints. Just an example obviously and just used to .

But here is what I do want to get at:
What was the intention behind publishing it after 3 days?
Here's my two cents on that particular topic:
When you send a document like this to an Organisation, with explicit accusations against their leader, youre looking to stir a conversation within the organisation.
Do you really think these massive allegations against Ramon can be internally discussed within three working days?
I know that would not be able to come to a compromise within that time. And that would just be the first step to improvement - implementing changes would be another.
This whole thing hints heavily at your immediate intention of releasing this to the public in the first place. There was neither a warning, nor even the suggestion that this would go public afaik.

[Fabian12341]

Originally Posted by Sweaty1337

I do not use Epvpers much, so I do not know whether there's a function to view the editing history of a post. If there is not I gonna ask you to refrain from editing your post for all intents and purposes. Falsifying information now, when the post has already gained traction would be all to simple. Merely a suggestion of course. I hope you see the irony in this.

"The problem lays within the person itself and not in the name."

You know, things are in fact a bit blurry for me right now, because how does that not spell out a blatant direct personal attack. Rather than the indirect attack it already was.
You wrote this account of your issues with the administration of 4Nova trying to sound as unbiased as possible just to have it climax in that particular sentence.
Freudian slip maybe?

I do not intend to discuss your whole report. I will say though that the discussion regarding rwt is moot at this point and rule enforcement was unsatisfactory. Favouritism however, took place in only the ever so minor degree. You can fight me on that if you so wish. I just think it was neglectable. I also did not profit from it myelf, right hand to god. When reckless was taken out (which seemed likely because of the voting either way) I had 15 of them and 200k bonuspoints. Just an example obviously and just used to .

But here is what I do want to get at:
What was the intention behind publishing it after 3 days?
Here's my two cents on that particular topic:
When you send a document like this to an Organisation, with explicit accusations against their leader, youre looking to stir a conversation within the organisation.
Do you really think these massive allegations against Ramon can be internally discussed within three working days?
I know that would not be able to come to a compromise within that time. And that would just be the first step to improvement - implementing changes would be another.
This whole thing hints heavily at your immediate intention of releasing this to the public in the first place. There was neither a warning, nor even the suggestion that this would go public afaik.

The problem lays within the person itself and not in the name.
As in: If I were to be a server owner and name myself Ramon it will not automatically result in the same errors just because the name Ramon was picked. Meaning the personality treats of him lead towards the negative actions. There have been no insults on a personal level but just a listing of wrong behaviour with their corresponding consequences instead of judging his personality. His claims, actions and comments have been examined with evidence and there were no abusive or manipulative remarks made on his character. In other words: we just listed what he said and did and added some obvious results and impressions that those actions created. I'm not sure whether or not you know what an attack on a personal level is so it's whatever.

Intention behind publishing: On August 2nd, one of the GA's that was sent the document (I'm intentionally not calling him out) wrote (translated) at 22:05: "I will not reply today anyways since i have to go to work in 4h so i will read it in detail tomorrow". So we expected it to be dealt with and to notice some kind of reaction (either in their behaviour or as a direct reply) but that did not happen.
We assumed because it was due to them knowing we criticise them a lot so they might have found this to be another version of "well they're mad again but everybody else isn't" so posting this public was meant to undermine the fact that this is not just an isolated thought process but rather the collective opinion of the majority of players.
Also these are not allegations and in no way at all massive. Allegations are an assertion made with little or no proof but there has been plenty of evidence here, so maybe reconsider your choice of words here.
Yes there was never a warning of this going public because it was never meant to be (we even had to translate it just for this purpose, if we intendet to publish it we would've written it in english right away). Also threatening to make this public if they don't respond in X time is just not the thing to do. It should've caused a timely response or feedback without any further pushing for an answer but didn't which is why we - with great reason - found this to be another ignored feedback this time with more than sufficient evidence (referring to feedback not only from us) and decided to make it public (suddenly they immediately stopped ignoring and reacted, literally the only thing expected in the first place).

[Sweaty1337]

Abusive? No. Manipulative? Maybe so.
You do not have to slur someone or beat them to deal a blow to them. But I think writing a one-sided "analysis" on a public forum to damage their reputation even further and rally the community against them is at the very least an attack on the person.
Whether it is a personal attack is debatable by meaning of the phrase.
You tried going after him in the most diplomatically correct way, then failed when you gave your conclusion which directly contradicted your introduction.

"This report only referrs to the server owner Ramon, not the private person behind that synonym."
"The problem lays within the person itself and not in the name."

Remarkably paradoxical.
This hints towards the possibility that while this analysis was made out to sound rational, the motivation was rather emotional which is reflected in the conclusion.

A personal attack put the attacker in the position of judge and jury, and the other person as an obviously guilty defendant. It can seem like a one-person kangaroo court where the attacked person has no right to argue their case.

I like this definition because it fits my perceived meaning of the phrase./s
Of course what you write and what you mean can differ widely.

Source:

"There have been no insults on a personal level but just a listing of wrong behaviour with their corresponding consequences instead of judging his personality"

You keep referring to you not judging his personality but you do judge it to be the reason for the extreme drop in players?

"We decided to create this report to give a more detailed insight into the reasons for the extreme drop in player numbers and found out that most problems trace back to one single person."

I believe this matter to be personal in every sense of the word indeed.
But of course that would take away from the credibility of your initial post so I will be very careful with that. Make an attempt to deny it or accept it. I have made my point.

[Fabian12341]

Originally Posted by Sweaty1337

Abusive? No. Manipulative? Maybe so.
You do not have to slur someone or beat them to deal a blow to them. But I think writing a one-sided "analysis" on a public forum to damage their reputation even further and rally the community against them is at the very least an attack on the person.
Whether it is a personal attack is debatable by meaning of the phrase.
You tried going after him in the most diplomatically correct way, then failed when you gave your conclusion which directly contradicted your introduction.

"This report only referrs to the server owner Ramon, not the private person behind that synonym."
"The problem lays within the person itself and not in the name."

Remarkably paradoxical.
This hints towards the possibility that while this analysis was made out to sound rational, the motivation was rather emotional which is reflected in the conclusion.

A personal attack put the attacker in the position of judge and jury, and the other person as an obviously guilty defendant. It can seem like a one-person kangaroo court where the attacked person has no right to argue their case.

I like this definition because it fits my perceived meaning of the phrase./s
Of course what you write and what you mean can differ widely.

Source:

"There have been no insults on a personal level but just a listing of wrong behaviour with their corresponding consequences instead of judging his personality"

You keep referring to you not judging his personality but you do judge it to be the reason for the extreme drop in players?

"We decided to create this report to give a more detailed insight into the reasons for the extreme drop in player numbers and found out that most problems trace back to one single person."

I believe this matter to be personal in every sense of the word indeed.
But of course that would take away from the credibility of your initial post so I will be very careful with that. Make an attempt to deny it or accept it. I have made my point.

There's no intent of a one sided attack what so ever. Did you not read where we stated multiple times that we enjoy the server and most of the people there are doing a good job or are you just looking for a confronration? Since when is stating a criticism towards somebody's represented company like "Tim Cook is leading apple way worse than Steve Jobs did" a personal attack towards said person? If you are the main represantative of any business or in this instance 4Nova you are always the person being held accountable for any errors. Personal attack examples are something like "you are pathetic" etc. There's never been anything like that. If you can't handle an objective documentation just don't try. It's not a judgement that the reasons trace back to him it is a conclusion that has been made more than understandable. We have no idea how he is in person and frankly do not care so why do you feel offended for that. Go ahead and show the parts where his personality is judged on a private level and not related to his role as a server owner. His personal treats might be the things that lead to him making the listed mistakes but the actual characteristics of his private persona are never judged.
Also while we're at it:
"I believe this matter to be personal in every sense of the word indeed." This is an example of an allegation. Little or no proof but an assumption made. Keep learning
I guess you have the need to feel offended on personal levels and are not capable of handling sensitive subjects without bringing in any personal relations on an emotional level.

[Sweaty1337]

That is not an allegation. I laid out your contradicting statements and made a conclusion out of the presented quotes and facts. Sound familiar?

"This hints towards the possibility that while this analysis was made out to sound rational, the motivation was rather emotional which is reflected in the conclusion."

This might be an allegation tho. But dont we all keep learning?

But belittling sentences like "I'm not sure whether or not you know what an attack on a personal level is so it's whatever."
And "Keep Learning" is the unprofessional way of arguing you made a point to highlight in the first place.

I'm also not offended. In any way. Just an empathetic bystander.
But I understand if you are offended. With the above mentioned remarks it would seem more likely.
Then there's you not being heard on 4Nova.
I genuinely hope throwing this tantrum eased you guys' anger and gave you some closure.