Java in server development

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Originally Posted by Trigorio Look, let's say you can chose between having 1.5k players and 5k players? Obviously if you satisfy around 1.5k then you are not aiming for the best are you now? Andrew (creator of runescape) had programmed in java for a very very long time and therefor he was very used to java. I could picture myself in his shoes, I would possibly also of kept going with java. C# has developed alot since 2002, C# today is not the same as it was 2002 or 2005.

I'm not saying pick Java for the best, i'm saying don't not pick it because of this community disliking it. Theres a handful in this community that know a thing or 2.

and that 1.5k wasn't server limit, it was a player cap because having more would be fitting too many people into a game, need some spread out.

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Originally Posted by ChingChong23 IIRC Hybrid gave the name JProxy because originally it was going to be written in Java, then they scrapped that idea since none of them knew Java well enough.

Haven't read the rest cause I'm still tired, will read it when I wake up, or get some coffee.

But this bit isn't true, it was named JProxy becuase, 'J' short of J'ai, which in french means I(Myself), resulting in iProxy. Which I assume was not chosen because Apple practically violate anything beginning with a lowercase i.

At least that's what Hybrid told me.

I remember watching a video in which James Gosling awarded RuneScape for their success with Java. The man that represented RuneScape said that they run two languages inhouse.

Speed really isn't an issue with languages these days, but it can be (depending on what you're doing). Java is perfectly capable and a viable choice for server development IMHO. It all comes down to what you're comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by © Haydz Haven't read the rest cause I'm still tired, will read it when I wake up, or get some coffee. But this bit isn't true, it was named JProxy becuase, 'J' short of J'ai, which in french means I(Myself), resulting in iProxy. Which I assume was not chosen because Apple practically violate anything beginning with a lowercase i. At least that's what Hybrid told me.

Actually it's 'Je' J'ai means 'I have' anyway, from what i have read/saw p-servers around here went C# because some public C# source was released so people just went with the flow, Java is not a bad language itself(I can't pretty much judge it because i haven't used it much tbh i don't remember anything since the last time i tried it :(), and it's not only Java the only language which was almost totally abandoned(look around, they're all using C# and i wouldn't comment on their skills!) anyway this is again a question about opinions, the decision is totally the programmer's decision, languages don't 'over-do' each other(just C++ because it's just cool :p and excluding vb from the 'languages', guess it's something that most programmers agree on)

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Originally Posted by Viscount S I remember watching a video in which James Gosling awarded RuneScape for their success with Java. The man that represented RuneScape said that they run two languages inhouse. Speed really isn't an issue with languages these days, but it can be (depending on what you're doing). Java is perfectly capable and a viable choice for server development IMHO. It all comes down to what you're comfortable with.

Yes I believe so aswell, it all comes down to what you're comfortable with. So if someone likes java alot they should stick to it and not care about what others say. BUT an exception, if you are making a multidollar game company then I really wouldn't chose java. When you are at a professional state like that you can not satisfy with mediocre. There is a reason why most top notch games deisgned today are not made in java.

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Originally Posted by Viscount S I remember watching a video in which James Gosling awarded RuneScape for their success with Java. The man that represented RuneScape said that they run two languages inhouse. Speed really isn't an issue with languages these days, but it can be (depending on what you're doing). Java is perfectly capable and a viable choice for server development IMHO. It all comes down to what you're comfortable with.

they may, but for the main game server it's written in Java, as stated in a development blog / Q&A's on their website.

Need more Java programmers around CO2 dev imo

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Originally Posted by ChingChong23 they may, but for the main game server it's written in Java, as stated in a development blog / Q&A's on their website. Need more Java programmers around CO2 dev imo

i think wee need more PHP coders around CO2 imo :D hahahah and ASM :)

ASM Programmers?

brb coding a server in FASM.

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Originally Posted by Trigorio BUT an exception, if you are making a multidollar game company then I really wouldn't chose java. When you are at a professional state like that you can not satisfy with mediocre. There is a reason why most top notch games deisgned today are not made in java.

Which is? I'm sure you've got an exceptional reason for saying such cunning words.

Because RuneScape is a hot topic in this thread: why isn't RuneScape as professional to you, as other games are (because it was written in Java)? Have they lost any profit because of it? The game has gained a user base of 150 million since it started, and it seems like it's gaining more profit based on the fact that it is platform independent and that it is based on the web IMHO.

Most "top notch games designed today" are written in C/++ based on the fact that's it has been in the industry longer than Java or C#, and we can clearly see that both are becoming more used in the industry, and both are being used more often for game development as well.

It'd be much easier to understand your point of view if you were to explain why Java is "mediocre," if that is what you were referring to.

There are occasions where using Java is rather unnecessary, and one could be if your project relied heavily on C++ code.

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Originally Posted by Korvacs Personally i dont see the logic in using Java over a .Net language, unless your specifically need multi-platform support.

There seems to be a slew of opinions without reason or information.

Why is it more logical for me to write my server in a .NET language, when I could simply do so in Java?

Perhaps unsigned data types would have been nice to include in Java, but it was apparently too confusing or complicated to warrant it, but I can deal without it.

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Originally Posted by Viscount S Which is? I'm sure you've got an exceptional reason for saying such cunning words. Because RuneScape is a hot topic in this thread: why isn't RuneScape as professional to you, as other games are (because it was written in Java)? Have they lost any profit because of it? The game has gained a user base of 150 million since it started, and it seems like it's gaining more profit based on the fact that it is platform independent and that it is based on the web IMHO. Most "top notch games designed today" are written in C/++ based on the fact that's it has been in the industry longer than Java or C#, and we can clearly see that both are becoming more used in the industry, and both are being used more often for game development as well. It'd be much easier to understand your point of view if you were to explain why Java is "mediocre," if that is what you were referring to. There are occasions where using Java is rather unnecessary, and one could be if your project relied heavily on C++ code.

Kinda late now so my brain might not function right but let me try.

If you think 150 milion dollars is alot for a game that has existed for about 10 years you ought to be crazy. just take Conquer as an example. You ask me why I wouldn't program a multimillion dollar game in java? Because you would not be able to achieve the same performance as you can in games like WoW, CoD6, Perfect World, Dragons and Dungeons, you name it.

You say the reason most games are programmed in C/C++ and not java is because it's been on the market the longest? No, it's because C++ is closer to low lvl programming = Alot more protection to start with and also alot more faster... C++ is NATIVE language, it's closer to machine code then java is.
These languages have totally different purposes.
Comparison of Java and C++ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Start reading.

I'm not saying Java is mediocre compared to C#, but C++, I can not even believe that you are questioning that...

Let me ask you, do you play Runescape? If so why not? Crappy graphics? Oh my... Why is runescape so limited?

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Originally Posted by Trigorio Kinda late now so my brain might not function right but let me try. If you think 150 milion dollars is alot for a game that has existed for about 10 years you ought to be crazy. just take Conquer as an example. You ask me why I wouldn't program a multimillion dollar game in java? Because you would not be able to achieve the same performance as you can in games like WoW, CoD6, Perfect World, Dragons and Dungeons, you name it.

I did not say the game has made 150 million dollars in its existence, I said it has a user base of 150 million.

Any multimillion dollar game would most definitely rely on libraries and frameworks created in C/++ or Assembly, and many such libraries have been ported to Java, which is similar to what Mark Gerhard, CEO of Jagex, Ltd was referring to when he said "we run two languages inhouse" ([Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]). Java offers a layer of abstraction to these libraries. I find it rather useless to argue the inability of Java to perform such feats because it very well can and has, I believe ChingChong23 has already mentioned RedDwarf Server, a community fork of Project Darkstar.

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Originally Posted by Trigorio You say the reason most games are programmed in C/C++ and not java is because it's been on the market the longest? No, it's because C++ is closer to low lvl programming = Alot more protection to start with and also alot more faster... C++ is NATIVE language, it's closer to machine code then java is.

I'll leave this to someone else.

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Originally Posted by Trigorio These languages have totally different purposes. Comparison of Java and C++ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Start reading.

What's your point? No where in there does it validate your claim that C++ is superior to Java in game development.

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Originally Posted by Trigorio Let me ask you, do you play Runescape? If so why not? Crappy graphics? Oh my... Why is runescape so limited?

I don't play RuneScape because of their lack of support for free members. I like the graphics, but I like RSC's more. I don't think graphics is the issue here, I'm not aware that the creator of RuneScape ever wanted his game to look like World of Warcraft. For example, some people like creating low bit games because it appeals to them, and it's unique.

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Originally Posted by Trigorio I'm not saying Java is mediocre compared to C#, but C++, I can not even believe that you are questioning that...

Question what? You didn't give me anything to question, except the lack of clarity in your post.

Game development is out of the scope of this thread, this discussion was to be about Java in server development. While I enjoy your conversation, it's far from the point.

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Originally Posted by Viscount S There seems to be a slew of opinions without reason or information. Why is it more logical for me to write my server in a .NET language, when I could simply do so in Java? Perhaps unsigned data types would have been nice to include in Java, but it was apparently too confusing or complicated to warrant it, but I can deal without it.

Because the framework has quite litterally everything you need, in every aspect to write a server, Java has....what? The basics from what ive seen, if you want anything else your required to go find someone who has written something and then include that. Its missing fundamental aspects of programming, a prime example as you say are unsigned integers, theres nothing complicated about them, out of the 8 bits used in a byte, 1 is used to denote positive and negative for a standard integer, unsigned ones use the full 8 bits for intergers and dont have one to determine positive/negative. Which is why they can only ever be positive.

Java has everything needed, it just has a far bigger choice of 3rd party tools, since Java is massive on open-source. There's frameworks for just about anything, which is great, i mean who wouldn't use tools made by multiple people and throughly tested, rather than using some default Java classes.

I guess you could say .NET is better for beginners, since it's classes are much easier to use and it's main IDE is also very easy to use.

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Originally Posted by Korvacs Because the framework has quite litterally everything you need, in every aspect to write a server, Java has....what? The basics from what ive seen, if you want anything else your required to go find someone who has written something and then include that. Its missing fundamental aspects of programming, a prime example as you say are unsigned integers, theres nothing complicated about them, out of the 8 bits used in a byte, 1 is used to denote positive and negative for a standard integer, unsigned ones use the full 8 bits for intergers and dont have one to determine positive/negative. Which is why they can only ever be positive.

Many languages struggle with not having everything that one single person may ever need, so we tend to have to outsource to third-party software so as not to reinvent the wheel. I will cede that Java is lacking some specific features that the .NET languages provide, but it's a small price to pay for Java's largely abstract API.

I wouldn't necessarily call unsigned integer data types a fundamental aspect of any programming language, but when it comes to server development, it would be useful. With that said, it's not hard to get around it at all, and I have had no issues with the development of my servers in Java for any of the reasons you've stated above, and I do not use third-party software or class libraries.