Revision of the Feedback and Disput System

I've been a part of ePvPers for quite some time, and while I might not be the most active member, I've noticed a significant issue with the forum's anti-scam measures. I bring this up because I was recently scammed for $400 by a user on this forum, and when I attempted to notify other members he was a scammer, my warning was removed by staff, and I was warned in DMs to not do it again. Let me break down the problem and suggest some straightforward solutions, as I believe this is a serious issue ePvPers has.

The Problem

So, here's the deal. Sellers often create threads offering services or products, and they include their Discord or Telegram usernames, asking potential customers to chat with them off-site. This has become a common practice because other forums allow off-site trading while still protecting users in case of scams. The trouble arises when a deal goes sour. The buyer, who initially found the seller on ePvPers, comes back to report the scam with evidence. Unfortunately, the forum's current policies offer zero protection to users who didn't use the on-site trade system, allowing scammers to get away with it and continue to scam.


Here are a few potential solutions:

1. Revise the Rep System: We should consider changing the reputation system to allow all members to give reputation points, even if they didn't trade on-site. If someone abuses this system, sellers should be able to dispute it and prove the negativity is unwarranted. False negative reputations could result in penalties, like temporary bans.

2. Restrict Off-Site Communication: To make things safer, we could limit the use of off-site communication, like Discord and Telegram, unless sellers have a good on-site trading track record. For example, only sellers with at least 20 positive on-site trades could post their Discord or Telegram usernames.

3. Allow Off-Site Deal Reports: To give users more protection, we could let customers who dealt off-site but initially found the seller's sales thread on ePvPers report scams with solid evidence.

Other forums have implemented similar systems effectively, and most users are familiar with them. Simply telling everyone to use the on-site trade system isn't enough, especially for newbies who might get scammed unknowingly and then ditch the forum. These changes could not only improve the ePvPers trading system but also increase new user retention overall.

I hope you'll seriously consider these suggestions and how they could benefit the forum. I sincerely want the best for this forum as its the best out there for what it has to offer.

So since you are here quite some time now, like you say yourself.
You should know the following [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] exist.

It is clearly stated how trades should be made.
If you trade offside without an request a trade its your own fault for not following the guidelines.

An no, the rep system should not be reviewed as that will 100% end in abuse of the trade system.

If you trade with somebody via discord or something else request a trade with them and a confirmation pm.

Against the changes for obv reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerogott So since you are here quite some time now, like you say yourself. You should know the following [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] exist. It is clearly stated how trades should be made. If you trade offside without an request a trade its your own fault for not following the guidelines. An no, the rep system should not be reviewed as that will 100% end in abuse of the trade system. If you trade with somebody via discord or something else request a trade with them and a confirmation pm. Against the changes for obv reasons.

It's almost like you did not even read my thread.

I'm saying the current system is terrible, because it results in scammers exploiting it and scamming new and unassuming users. As I stated in the thread, there is a culture that exist on every single other trading forum where Discord and Telegram is vastly used over on-site trading systems yet the forum the sales post was originally on still offers deal dispute and scam reports for those that dealt off-site. If the forum is going to allow off-site discussion, then they should allow a scam report if they were scammed off-site on said platform, i.e. Discord / Telegram. Virtually every other trading forum in existence on the internet does this, and it works great.

It just seems like the staff here are too lazy to want to go through scam reports for off-site scams, so they just say "Too bad you did not use our on-site trading system that virtually no one uses, better luck next time!" Okay, great. So now I know this forum doesn't protect off-site deals even if the sales thread of the scammer is on this forum and the seller is serial scamming new and unassuming users. Brilliant. What is stopping anyone here from making an alt and serial scamming users? Oh wait, that already happens.

As for users abusing my suggested system replacements; better they try to abuse it for the benefit of fewer people being scammed. The way the current system is configured is literally allowing people to be scammed at mass. Not to mention, such abuse of the system could result in severe consequences, like a ban. Every other forum I've been on has an on-site rep system that allows the user to give negative or positive rep + vouch for a positive deal or open a scam report if they were scammed off-site by the on-site seller. Why is ePvPers any different?

"If you trade with somebody via discord or something else request a trade with them and a confirmation pm."

Yeah, requesting a DM doesn't stop them from scamming you. It only verifies it's really their profile, which I already do.

What I have pointed out is a blatant flaw in the current trade system and until it is solved people will continue to get scammed by serial scammers as this system will continue to be abused. If staff wants to continue to ignore it and not take my suggestions serious, then so be it. Your users will continue to get scammed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMerc It's almost like you did not even read my thread. I'm saying the current system is terrible, because it results in scammers exploiting it and scamming new and unassuming users. As I stated in the thread, there is a culture that exist on every single other trading forum where Discord and Telegram is vastly used over on-site trading systems yet the forum the sales post was originally on still offers deal dispute and scam reports for those that dealt off-site. If the forum is going to allow off-site discussion, then they should allow a scam report if they were scammed off-site on said platform, i.e. Discord / Telegram. Virtually every other trading forum in existence on the internet does this, and it works great. It just seems like the staff here are too lazy to want to go through scam reports for off-site scams, so they just say "Too bad you did not use our on-site trading system that virtually no one uses, better luck next time!" Okay, great. So now I know this forum doesn't protect off-site deals even if the sales thread of the scammer is on this forum and the seller is serial scamming new and unassuming users. Brilliant. What is stopping anyone here from making an alt and serial scamming users? Oh wait, that already happens. As for users abusing my suggested system replacements; better they try to abuse it for the benefit of fewer people being scammed. The way the current system is configured is literally allowing people to be scammed at mass. Not to mention, such abuse of the system could result in severe consequences, like a ban. Every other forum I've been on has an on-site rep system that allows the user to give negative or positive rep + vouch for a positive deal or open a scam report if they were scammed off-site by the on-site seller. Why is ePvPers any different? "If you trade with somebody via discord or something else request a trade with them and a confirmation pm." Yeah, requesting a DM doesn't stop them from scamming you. It only verifies it's really their profile, which I already do. What I have pointed out is a blatant flaw in the current trade system and until it is solved people will continue to get scammed by serial scammers as this system will continue to be abused. If staff wants to continue to ignore it and not take my suggestions serious, then so be it. Your users will continue to get scammed.

No,
the forum should not allow scam reports for offsite trades since you are NOT supposed to trade without using request a trade...
If you trade without requesting a trade here, and you get scammed that is your own fault.

EPVP is different because we use the Internal TBM system cause nobody cares about other reps cause they can be faked easily.

Also stop being butthurt because you got scammed cause you didn't follow the trade guidelines..

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerogott No, the forum should not allow scam reports for offsite trades since you are NOT supposed to trade without using request a trade... If you trade without requesting a trade here, and you get scammed that is your own fault. EPVP is different because we use the Internal TBM system cause nobody cares about other reps cause they can be faked easily. Also stop being butthurt because you got scammed cause you didn't follow the trade guidelines..

People like you are what is wrong with these forums. You enable and defend blatantly flawed systems needlessly, and then attack those that give constructive feedback out of genuine concern.

1. I am not butthurt about getting scammed. Sure, it's frustrating that staff doesn't care and allows him to keep scamming their users even though I can prove to them he is scamming via screenshots of Discord convos, but "butthurt" I am not. What a weak, thoughtless insult and rebuttal to my valid arguments and suggestions. All this is is a feeble attempt to invalidate my suggestions.

2. Are you seriously stating that TBM rep cannot be faked easily? You have to be joking, lol. That is a known thing that staff even has admitted occurs here quite frequently. Sellers buy trade rep from sellers on other forums to boost their rep here. The fact you are oblivious to this fact goes to show that you don't understand the gravity of the situation.

3. You are still completely missing my point. Yes, I am aware you "aren't supposed to trade off-site without using the TBM system", but that is the ENTIRE issue I'm pointing out. This system is flawed because many people who are new to the forum or have been around a while and were not fully versed on all the rules of the forum, like myself, end up getting scammed at least once and then have no way to report the scammer, so then the scammer continues to find people who deal off-site and don't know the rules. That is why I suggested that if staff doesn't want to completely reform the current system, they should raise the requirement to post off-site contact information, like a Discord or Telegram username, to at least reduce the amount of serial scammers. As of now, brand new alt accounts that have 0 TBM can create a really convincing sales thread, post their Discord or Telegram in the sales thread, and funnel users off-site to scam them. The user, after getting scammed, who seeks justice and wants to stop the scammer from scamming someone else, comes back to the forum where they found the scammer's sales thread and sees they can't report the scammer, let along even warn other users he is a scammer, even with valid evidence.

Again, it seems like you did not read my thread because you are literally just restating points I already pre-counter argued in the OP.

Hey,

I think you misread our rules, scam reports are fine as long as they stick to the rules, even without a trade. The feedback requirements are found in the TBM Rules and below the quick reply in each trading forum. Your post was deleted because it didn't contain any evidence at all, we don't want that.

Allowing to rate other members without an initial trade request would render the rating system useless.

Quote:

Restrict Off-Site Communication

Too easy to bypass, this would also kill the user experience.

I know @[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]'s words are quite harsh, but it is the truth, using our trade tools filters most scammers, being new is no excuse to not using them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Hey, I think you misread our rules, scam reports are fine as long as they stick to the rules, even without a trade. The feedback requirements are found in the TBM Rules and below the quick reply in each trading forum. Your post was deleted because it didn't contain any evidence at all, we don't want that. Allowing to rate other members without an initial trade request would render the rating system useless. Too easy to bypass, this would also kill the user experience. I know @[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]'s words are quite harsh, but it is the truth, using our trade tools filters most scammers, being new is no excuse to not using them.

Oh really? Because in your own thread that can be found [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...], you state verbatim the following:

"What proof don't we accept?

We do not accept proof that we can not comprehend and thus not check their validity. These include chat logs of instant messengers like Discord etc."

So which is it? Do you or do you not accept chat logs of instant messengers like Discord and Telegram as valid proof a scam took place? Because you are contradicting yourself right now. If it is the case that you do accept off-site proof, then you should update your rules so it's not confusing. There is nothing to misread here, it's stated as it's stated.

"Allowing to rate other members without an initial trade request would render the rating system useless."

You misunderstand. I am suggesting a vouch / rating system, like you have now, and a reputation system, like other forums have. They offer both options and serve different useful purposes.

His words aren't harsh, nor are they true. You are both either not reading my thread or not comprehending it at all. I am pointing out a blatant flaw in your system that allows scammers to serial scam new and unassuming users. This is not necessarily about me and my scam situation. Most people do not read the rules of the website, this is the reality of online forums. Saying "Oh well, too bad for you" after they were scammed from your own forum and NOT taking proof from them that they were scammed by a user on your forum to stop other users on the forum from being scammed is just absolutely unacceptable and sad. If this is not the case, then you need to update the above thread, as that is what I read and what initially prompted me to open this thread. Right now you currently state in your above post that you do accept off-site evidence, but in the thread I linked here you stated you don't.

And yes, I understand and agree it is partially the fault of the user / victim for not using the on-site system, but I'm simply pointing out that it's just not a realistic expectation for most people who are new to the forum or haven't read the trade process / scam rules. Most people don't do that until it's necessary, like after getting scammed. Since you do allow the use of off-site messaging, then the user will likely assume you would support them in the event they were scammed off-site. So my primary point is that you should still support these members, as if you tell them oh well should have read the rules and used our on-site trade system after getting scammed on your site, it will just turn them away from ever wanting to use your website again. Seriously, though, how hard is it to simply allow off-site proof if it's valid evidence the buyer was scammed by an on-site seller? Every other forum supports this, so why can't you? It's virtually standard practice for such forums.

The linked thread is about getting support when our trade system has been used, not about posting feedback. Accepting off-site evidence for support cases is not possible, as we can't verify the legitimacy. Yes, there are sites which do that, but this can be easily exploited to get most users banned in a matter of days by using forged "evidence" (which we've seen a lot of).

I don't see any benefit to introduce a second vouch/rating/reputation system without the initial lock-in requirement, way too easy to abuse and it would cause rep wars between sellers.

We're currently working on a more noob-friendly system, which will eliminate most of the issues of the current one. Using our trade feature or elite*gold is still the way to go until then. :)

Suggestion rejected.