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Thats somewhat like saying "why not remove classes and weapons and let everyone run around with a punching hello kitty".

Thats my opinion , based on tests. I did not say remove the buffs from classes , i said make buffs only SELF Buffable. Anyway can you name games where :

1. Total stun duration of most classes is above 18 seconds.
2. Nearly all combos can one shot every other class.
3. Most of the buffs boost stats with 30/40 % .
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Take Str Dhan as an example:
- Crazy Str - 35 %
- Rising Might -21 %
- Alm - 25%
- Empower - 30 %
- CTB - 20 %
- Arcane Mastery - 10%
- Melle Scrolls - 20%/30%
- Alm Scrolls - 10%/20%
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I dont know about you , but i have never seen such game, where certain class can boost its damage more than 3.0x ++ times. Its just not right. Also consider the fact that while some classes have boosts like str dhans , other classes are underpowered.

4. Silence is 40 seconds.
5. Sleeps are ~20+ seconds.
6. Maybe missing something but ...... i have made my point

This game needs a fu**ing PUNCH IN THE FACE and TOTAL REBUILD to be playable.
If you dont make any major nerf , the game will stay broken and boring as it is now

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 Thats my opinion , based on tests. I did not say remove the buffs from classes , i said make buffs only SELF Buffable. Anyway can you name games where : 1. Total stun duration of most classes is above 18 seconds. 2. Nearly all combos can one shot every other class. 3. Most of the buffs boost stats with 30/40 % .

1. Total stun duration over 18 seconds? I dont know what you consider as stun, but all classes do only have stuns worth 5-10 seconds, where 5 seconds is common.
Sleeps ARE NOT stuns and shouldnt be considered as such.

2. Simply no. If you say "combo" I think of fast shadow/crazy standing. While those skills increase your DPS, they dont ONESHOT classes. There are just two skillsets I can currently think of which are acctually able to oneshot classes, a) FFS/DFFS/WFFS/ and b) PP/DPP.
DPS s fine, oneshotting is not. But seriously, balancing the handfull of skills mentioned above aint much of a hassle.

3. No. Most buffs only give stat increases of about 20-30%. Skills like dragons power with 40% are rather "rare".


Now all this is absolutely balanceable (if at all needed) and doesnt require a complete remove of buffs (or making them self buffs which is dumb due to lacks of temporal power curves).

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 ----------------- Take Str Dhan as an example: - Crazy Str - 35 % - Rising Might -21 % - Alm - 25% - Empower - 30 % - CTB - 20 % - Arcane Mastery - 10% - Melle Scrolls - 20%/30% - Alm Scrolls - 10%/20% --------------------------

1. Now we have to distinguesh. Scrolls are not necessarily available. Thats up to each server so kick alm scroll completely and have a melee scroll of 20% maximum. Even then, you wont run around with a perma melee scroll.

2. Arcane mastery? Considering its a guild buffs and definitly not permanently up... Well, this doesnt need to be accounted for.

3. Empower, im fine with. Tho, you need a group and a defender. But seriously CTB? For real? When do you acctually have a zerker in your group spamming CTB? Id prefer an active, damage dealing class. And yes, you wont have CTB 99.9% of the times.

4. That leaves us with 3 acctual buffs, ALM which everyone has, and two strength buffs which every strength based class can receive by kicking a guards ass. Now, every other class has a similar counter buff to those two.

After all, temporal power curves are needed and buffs generate them. Otherwise you will generate a shit PvP where noone can kill noone at all since everyone is kinda equal.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 I dont know about you , but i have never seen such game, where certain class can boost its damage more than 3.0x ++ times. Its just not right. Also consider the fact that while some classes have boosts like str dhans , other classes are underpowered.

Ive seen much worth games.
Another thing, str dhans do not have any boost. Str dekans got with evolve and dragons power. If you are speaking of nukes, thats another topic. But str dhans are useless except of PP/DPP.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 4. Silence is 40 seconds. 5. Sleeps are ~20+ seconds. 6. Maybe missing something but ...... i have made my point

1. Can be easily balanced by decreasing the numbers.
2. No you didnt made your point.


Dont feel stepped on your feets, but the above statement of yours is totaly off. At least for me.
It does not make a point to change buffs to self buffs.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 1. Total stun duration over 18 seconds? I dont know what you consider as stun, but all classes do only have stuns worth 5-10 seconds, where 5 seconds is common. Sleeps ARE NOT stuns and shouldnt be considered as such.

1. Do you actually understand the mean of the WORD COMBINED ? You cant have sequential stun duration of 17 seconds which resets every 30 seconds. Below is what i meant all along.
-Charge + Rush + Stunner = 15 seconds (if lv6 -> 16/17)
-Mana Burn + Health Burn + Recall = 15 seconds
"Sleeps ARE NOT stuns and shouldnt be considered as such" . Never said that. Just mentioned the durations of sleeps and roots are way too long . Nothing more .

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 2. Simply no. If you say "combo" I think of fast shadow/crazy standing. While those skills increase your DPS, they dont ONESHOT classes. There are just two skillsets I can currently think of which are acctually able to oneshot classes, a) FFS/DFFS/WFFS/ and b) PP/DPP. DPS s fine, oneshotting is not. But seriously, balancing the handfull of skills mentioned above aint much of a hassle.

2. Skill Combos or mostly known as SKILL COMBINING. Does not mean pro-longed Skill Usage. Skill Combo refers to simply skill combination for optimal Damage Output.As should constant sustained damage be considered as combo so should be spike,burst damage. Meaning that if OS+CS is considered combo so should be DPP + PP , Health Drain + Breath , DFFS + FFS and so on.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 3. No. Most buffs only give stat increases of about 20-30%. Skills like dragons power with 40% are rather "rare".

3. We are not talking about MOST buffs here. I am talking about ALL the buffs available for classes. While some classes can betefit from various sets of buffs , other classes CANT. So why should some classes be able to 3ple their damage output and some shouldnt ?

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 1. Now we have to distinguesh. Scrolls are not necessarily available. Thats up to each server so kick alm scroll completely and have a melee scroll of 20% maximum. Even then, you wont run around with a perma melee scroll.

4. No , no . Scrolls are always available. Even 10% , they are part of the game and should be couted as such. Even worse if you kick out ALM scroll this way you leave classes such as agi dhans and dex humans with only critical scrolls which is not nearly as effective and competitive as alm scroll compared to Melle/Magic etc scrolls.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 2. Arcane mastery? Considering its a guild buffs and definitly not permanently up... Well, this doesnt need to be accounted for.

5. As i said i am considering all available buffs. AM is not necessary hard to be kept permanently UP. Same Goes for CBT. Never said that all of those buffs can be up permanently, all i pointed out is how much buffs can benefit ONE single class.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 4. That leaves us with 3 acctual buffs, ALM which everyone has, and two strength buffs which every strength based class can receive by kicking a guards ass. Now, every other class has a similar counter buff to those two.

6. Yep 3 actual buffs (35+25+21) = 71% Str Boost(same goes to int and dex builds) ... + Ooops Deadly Blow (lv7) Kicks In and suddenly we have 4 Str Boost Buffs. + Scrolls(melle + alm) are almost guaranteed for Str Dhans ..... Anyways Can you tell me what are the "counter" buffs for Agi Dhan , Vit Dekan , Vit Defender , Dex Ranger.
It is not normal to have your stats boosted with 90 % , and not only that but have you %Stats boosted by 50 % more. This Will surely result in 1 shotting.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop Otherwise you will generate a shit PvP where noone can kill noone at all since everyone is kinda equal.

7. Not Equal , but blanced. Where PvP wont last 1 Second but maybe minute or two. Where you will actually have time to enjoy your Player Skill Level . Where you wont need 2 key-keyboard and $$$ to be the Best. That kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop Ive seen much worth games. Another thing, str dhans do not have any boost. Str dekans got with evolve and dragons power. If you are speaking of nukes, thats another topic. But str dhans are useless except of PP/DPP.

8. "Ive seen much worth games". Did not get that Part maybe you meant "worse". Nvm.
- Str Dhans have Deadly Blow and that is enought with alm and etc.
- Str DK. Have Enought Melle Boost they dont need Str boost 2
----------------------------------------------------
Basically every class has its buffs built-in.

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop 1. Can be easily balanced by decreasing the numbers. 2. No you didnt made your point. Dont feel stepped on your feets, but the above statement of yours is totaly off. At least for me. It does not make a point to change buffs to self buffs.

9. Yes Can be balanced but its not anywhere near that ATM. It seems to me that you dont want any hard nerfs commited on the game. But This Game needs this or otherwise as i said it wont change and it will keep sucking. Thats why Rohan has never been more that "common" game. Try to learn,study how other successful MMO's and try to replicate that. Rohan has always been about the $$$$. It has been built that way and it has evolved in that direction. Change THAT !


PS: Fair Enought Rito, you are right !

Guys, this is our Server Thread...
Please dont Spam with your Class/Skill Change Ideas.

It's nice to Read that much about it but please dont Forget its about our Server :D

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 1. Do you actually understand the mean of the WORD COMBINED ?

Quote me where I said I mean a SINGLE skill. You cant, since I meant combined aswell. However, my statement applies, classes do only have about 5-10 seconds worth of stun duration except of a few.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 You cant have sequential stun duration of 17 seconds which resets every 30 seconds. Below is what i meant all along. -Charge + Rush + Stunner = 15 seconds (if lv6 -> 16/17) -Mana Burn + Health Burn + Recall = 15 seconds

First you say "Total stun duration of most classes is above 18 seconds.". Now you say "You cant have sequential stun duration of 17 seconds which resets every 30 seconds. ".
And than you try to proof your point with two examples giving 15 seconds of stun duration?

I know that some classes can exceed the 5-10 seconds of total stun duration, thats beside the point. However, close to all classes do only have those 5-10 seconds with a few exceptions. Dhans are one of those, however, in a proper server guardians do not since Stunner should either be nerfed or is completly removed. Depending on hero skills are treated on respective servers. (If I remember correctly, hero skills are not available on this server)

Coming to your main point, making all buffs being self buffs. A to long stun duration, the one or the other way doesnt make sense just because stun durations are to long. Nerfing them, means reducing the numbers, aint a problem at all.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 "Sleeps ARE NOT stuns and shouldnt be considered as such" . Never said that. Just mentioned the durations of sleeps and roots are way too long . Nothing more.

Nothing against it, just pointed out so we discuss based on the same assumption.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 2. Skill Combos or mostly known as SKILL COMBINING. Does not mean pro-longed Skill Usage. Skill Combo refers to simply skill combination for optimal Damage Output.As should constant sustained damage be considered as combo so should be spike,burst damage. Meaning that if OS+CS is considered combo so should be DPP + PP , Health Drain + Breath , DFFS + FFS and so on.

Thats true and I never said anything different. However, what I pointed out to you is that a combo, means a combination, which has to consist of more than one skill/hit, can never oneshot a player due to before mentioned property of having more than one skill/hit. Furthermore, the now mentioned behaviour of yours now implies DPS/DOT which aswell aint oneshotting.
To summerize, skills like DPP and DFFS, as examples, can oneshot, whereas combinations of skills/hits simply cant.
You may go back and read my post of especially highlighting ONESHOT.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 3. We are not talking about MOST buffs here. I am talking about ALL the buffs available for classes. While some classes can betefit from various sets of buffs , other classes CANT. So why should some classes be able to 3ple their damage output and some shouldnt ?

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 3. Most of the buffs boost stats with 30/40 % .

Okey sir.

As of the why, since the above doesnt deserve an arguement, simply because you want classes to be different. You want to archive temporal power curves. You want to aswell buff some classes in one way while buffing other classes in a complete different way. You want to aswell balance some classes with selfbuffs. If you dont understand this concept of games, featuring classes which are DIFFERENT, you may step away from playing online games and instead play some games where everyone is equal.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 4. No , no . Scrolls are always available. Even 10% , they are part of the game and should be couted as such. Even worse if you kick out ALM scroll this way you leave classes such as agi dhans and dex humans with only critical scrolls which is not nearly as effective and competitive as alm scroll compared to Melle/Magic etc scrolls.

No, they are not always available. Its up to the owner of a respective server to decide so. I could aswell open a server without said scrolls to proof you wrong. However, the point is, you cant say for sure since its not integral and hardcoded into a game. Developers can decide to just kick them.
Not discussing about ALM scroll now btw. Thats a complete different topic and in our server (revo rohan) they wont be available while 15%-20% ME/MA/RA scrolls will be the absolutle maximum.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 5. As i said i am considering all available buffs. AM is not necessary hard to be kept permanently UP. Same Goes for CBT(CTB). Never said that all of those buffs can be up permanently, all i pointed out is how much buffs can benefit ONE single class.

That might be true, however, you have to aswell consider the probability of those being active. Arcane and CTB are not always up and do have a low probability to be. Arcane requires a guild which can acctually afford to cast it. CTB requires a alt/twink zerker to be leveled. (Not that it would be hard but incase zerkers are still unbalanced on respective server its unlikely to have one)
However, buffs like RM/CS/ALM/IB/PB are close to always available on a well populated server so one should calculate mainly with those.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 6. Yep 3 actual buffs (35+25+21) = 71% Str Boost(same goes to int and dex builds) ... + Ooops Deadly Blow (lv7) Kicks In and suddenly we have 4 Str Boost Buffs. + Scrolls(melle + alm) are almost guaranteed for Str Dhans ..... Anyways Can you tell me what are the "counter" buffs for Agi Dhan , Vit Dekan , Vit Defender , Dex Ranger. It is not normal to have your stats boosted with 90 % , and not only that but have you %Stats boosted by 50 % more. This Will surely result in 1 shotting.

1. It sounds as if those would be unique to str dhans only.
2. They are not, every strength base class has at least 3 buffs giving strength.
3. Its fine that str dhans having another str boost since their regular hits are low. Whereas having DPP/PP giving that much additional damage obviously aint. (I could advance on this as of why they should have way better regular hits instead of spikes but I guess you should be able to guess for yourself)
4. I dont want to see defenders having 50% more health, neither do i want to be hit by vit dekans by twice of the damage. Saying vit defs/dks should have the same boost is idiotic. Saying that other classes should have less buffs is idiotic since they wont have enough damage to bring down vit classes. Making every buff a selfbuff is idiotic since it will bring major imbalancements.
5. Dex rangers could need a small boost, approved.
6. Agi dhans are fine. Hitting 2-3k crits + invenom is, well, good enough. Or do you want to give them the remaining 50% boost aswell?

But yea, if you want major imbalancements or everyone to be equal, one or the other way to turn out. Feel free to proceed.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 7. Not Equal , but blanced. Where PvP wont last 1 Second but maybe minute or two. Where you will actually have time to enjoy your Player Skill Level . Where you wont need 2 key-keyboard and $$$ to be the Best. That kind of stuff.

There are better ways to archive this and your way, well making everything a self buff, is not.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 8. "Ive seen much worth games". Did not get that Part maybe you meant "worse". Nvm.

Typo.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 - Str DK. Have Enought Melle Boost they dont need Str boost 2

If the base sucks, melee boosts will do nothing. Just sayin.


Not quoting 9. now since I didnt really read it but yea, there is acctually not to much to do to balance this game. You just need to know how and what the problem is. I can assure you, buffs aint the problem. At least not the way you see them.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 PS: Fair Enought Rito, you are right !

Yep, if you really want to further discuss this asmodeus than we surely can. However, itll not lead anywhere productive since you have your opinion and I do mine.

Anyway i think Rito has politely Asked you (me as well) to not discuss that any further.
And please stop twisting my words . You cant either understand me or you dont want to. I am fine with that.I wont continue this argument any further as rito asked. You could've respected Rito's Request and stop when he asked , anyway have a nice day !

Hey Rito.

As much as you think this is spamming, a lot of the points both of these guys are bring up is pretty valid.

While this is not the best place to have a skills bunfight, I am sure of you look thru the arguments on both sides you can find some of it useful for your server. Never ignore a source of knowledge. All knowledge is useful and may actually cover something you might not have considered.

A new thread for that kind of discussion would have been best though.

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Originally Posted by asmodeus812 And please stop twisting my words .

Not twisting any of your words, I aswell quoted exactly what you wrote.

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Originally Posted by Banana Bandit Hey Rito. As much as you think this is spamming, a lot of the points both of these guys are bring up is pretty valid. While this is not the best place to have a skills bunfight, I am sure of you look thru the arguments on both sides you can find some of it useful for your server. Never ignore a source of knowledge. All knowledge is useful and may actually cover something you might not have considered. A new thread for that kind of discussion would have been best though.

I wont Ignore it :)
We just wanna talk here about my Server.
If People wanna talk about Skill Changes they can Post it on our Forum ^^

Anyway thx for the Suggestions!

Dont be that guy rito. :D

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Originally Posted by Penelope Pitstop Dont be that guy rito. :D

:mofo:

The must funny part is they just forgot about parties!
MMO GAMES ARE NOT FOR SOLING WITH CLASSES BUT FOR PLAYING WITH PARTIES!

Dman you guys.

Btw RitoYukki i'm liking the server don't fuck it up, like Genesis is doing :]

Yea let us beat the crap out of us with 1 page long posts :D

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Originally Posted by rodcoura The must funny part is they just forgot about parties! MMO GAMES ARE NOT FOR SOLING WITH CLASSES BUT FOR PLAYING WITH PARTIES! Dman you guys. Btw RitoYukki i'm liking the server don't fuck it up, like Genesis is doing :]

We wont ;)