#stuck temp
[Midnight]Discussion-Thread
06/11/2013 08:02
Mostey#31
06/12/2013 07:02
vegettopk#32
Let's just discuss each of the features and the risk of being banned with each:
No Clip: Obviously high risk if people see you. Also, checking logs might show you being in places you shouldn't be able to access.
Wallwalk: I think this is only unsafe if you are seen using it, or go to a place you shouldn't be able to access. If you are using it to get to a place that you could access, I don't think it would be a red flag in the logs to see you in that location.
Zoomhack: I don't see how they could possibly detect this. I'm pretty sure the camera is client-side, and we know they have no client side detection. I think this function is perfectly safe.
Strafe: Not safe if you are seen using it. I don't think it would show up in the logs, however, because I believe it's just normal run speed, so it would just look like you are running straight forward. I would say it's medium risk, don't do it around people.
Nametag ESP: I don't think this can be detected at all. Should be perfectly safe.
Flyhack: Probably not safe at all. You could be seen, and it would probably show up in logs that you are not in a place you can get to by normal means.
Anti-Death: Same as no-clipping, I would assume.
CTT: I think this is an interesting one. Obviously if you are seen by someone, but many classes do have teleport utility skills. I think a lot of players wouldn't know what they saw if they saw you use it. A Thief with sword mainhand will be teleporting all over the place. Thief even has a trap that lets them teleport from a distance of 10,000. I would like to hear Buffy's thoughts on safe usage of CTT. I think doing it short distances will probably not get you noticed by players, as they would assume you are using a teleport skill. What about the server logs, though? Does anyone know if they would know whether or not you used a teleport skill before jumping forward 1200 range?
Autoloot: Pretty sure this is completely safe. All it does is spam the confirm button when it sees the Search option. Other players obviously can't see it, and to the logs it would just look like you are hitting your confirm button, which everyone does.
Speedhack: Obviously high speeds are dangerous, both from a player detection and log review standpoint. Lower speeds, though, I'm not sure about. Again, I'd like to hear from Buffy or anyone who knows more about this than I do, do you think in the logs they would be able to see if you were moving a certain speed because you had swiftness or not? If not, I don't think they could detect it through the logs. If you have astute players around you, they may notice you running faster than them without any swiftness or movement speed utilities, but they can't know if you have movement speed runes or traits, however. From a personal account, I've been using speedhack at 25% or lower for months and not been caught. Be careful when you have swiftness, though, because you will run faster than other people, and they might notice. I tend to go forward and stop and then run again, so players just think there is lag.
Field of View: I believe this is entirely safe. Same as the zoom-hack.
TP withdrawal: Obviously players can't see it. I suppose it might show up in the logs that you are not at a location where there is a TP, but there are personal TP merchants that people can spawn, so I'm not sure if they would be able to know if you had used someone's spawned TP merchant. Also a personal account: I've been using this a lot over the past few months and haven't been caught. I think it's probably safe.
Auto-explore: Most likely not safe at all. I used it on 3 characters to fully explore every zone without incident, but that was before the recent ban waves. My guess is that Anet is actively looking for people that are completing maps faster than should be possible. How they are detecting it, we don't know, but I think this is a very high risk feature.
I'd like to hear from Buffy and others what you think of my estimations. This is basically just so we can set up a best-practices procedure for things that are medium risk, and know which things to outright avoid using if you want to minimize your ban risks.
No Clip: Obviously high risk if people see you. Also, checking logs might show you being in places you shouldn't be able to access.
Wallwalk: I think this is only unsafe if you are seen using it, or go to a place you shouldn't be able to access. If you are using it to get to a place that you could access, I don't think it would be a red flag in the logs to see you in that location.
Zoomhack: I don't see how they could possibly detect this. I'm pretty sure the camera is client-side, and we know they have no client side detection. I think this function is perfectly safe.
Strafe: Not safe if you are seen using it. I don't think it would show up in the logs, however, because I believe it's just normal run speed, so it would just look like you are running straight forward. I would say it's medium risk, don't do it around people.
Nametag ESP: I don't think this can be detected at all. Should be perfectly safe.
Flyhack: Probably not safe at all. You could be seen, and it would probably show up in logs that you are not in a place you can get to by normal means.
Anti-Death: Same as no-clipping, I would assume.
CTT: I think this is an interesting one. Obviously if you are seen by someone, but many classes do have teleport utility skills. I think a lot of players wouldn't know what they saw if they saw you use it. A Thief with sword mainhand will be teleporting all over the place. Thief even has a trap that lets them teleport from a distance of 10,000. I would like to hear Buffy's thoughts on safe usage of CTT. I think doing it short distances will probably not get you noticed by players, as they would assume you are using a teleport skill. What about the server logs, though? Does anyone know if they would know whether or not you used a teleport skill before jumping forward 1200 range?
Autoloot: Pretty sure this is completely safe. All it does is spam the confirm button when it sees the Search option. Other players obviously can't see it, and to the logs it would just look like you are hitting your confirm button, which everyone does.
Speedhack: Obviously high speeds are dangerous, both from a player detection and log review standpoint. Lower speeds, though, I'm not sure about. Again, I'd like to hear from Buffy or anyone who knows more about this than I do, do you think in the logs they would be able to see if you were moving a certain speed because you had swiftness or not? If not, I don't think they could detect it through the logs. If you have astute players around you, they may notice you running faster than them without any swiftness or movement speed utilities, but they can't know if you have movement speed runes or traits, however. From a personal account, I've been using speedhack at 25% or lower for months and not been caught. Be careful when you have swiftness, though, because you will run faster than other people, and they might notice. I tend to go forward and stop and then run again, so players just think there is lag.
Field of View: I believe this is entirely safe. Same as the zoom-hack.
TP withdrawal: Obviously players can't see it. I suppose it might show up in the logs that you are not at a location where there is a TP, but there are personal TP merchants that people can spawn, so I'm not sure if they would be able to know if you had used someone's spawned TP merchant. Also a personal account: I've been using this a lot over the past few months and haven't been caught. I think it's probably safe.
Auto-explore: Most likely not safe at all. I used it on 3 characters to fully explore every zone without incident, but that was before the recent ban waves. My guess is that Anet is actively looking for people that are completing maps faster than should be possible. How they are detecting it, we don't know, but I think this is a very high risk feature.
I'd like to hear from Buffy and others what you think of my estimations. This is basically just so we can set up a best-practices procedure for things that are medium risk, and know which things to outright avoid using if you want to minimize your ban risks.
06/12/2013 17:39
RC_Nightsuit#33
You forgot teleporting to coordinates. Let me do that one:
In my opinion and from my experience, the safety level of this depends on when and where you use it. Especially the destination has to be clean from other palyers. So, as long as those coordinates lead to a safe spot, it should be one of the safest options. But then there are these rumors about invisible GMs scouting the area, and i still donīt know how much truth resides in them.
The rest of your estimations seem pretty sharp-thought, but they as well lack the possibility of these weird GM-rumors. If they exist, we donīt know which tools they have at hand and what they are able to do / detect. Seeing that ArenaNet pretty much log everything (remember the BLTC salvage kits not giving the proper chance for ectoes, they sent one to everyone who suffered from that bug), they probably could find any Midnight user if they wanted to - or if they had the manpower to crawl those masses of logs, that is.
EDIT: Oh, and if you want to hear my personal oppinion... well forget about the speedhacks. Who needs to run if you can just teleport (provided the zone you are in is emty or super-full where people popping up out of thin air is common experience [until culling is nonexistent of course]). Most classes have means of running constantly with 25% (seals) or 33% (swiftness), those who havenīt should consider taking runes of the centaur and their shortest-CD healskill for safety reasons.
In my opinion and from my experience, the safety level of this depends on when and where you use it. Especially the destination has to be clean from other palyers. So, as long as those coordinates lead to a safe spot, it should be one of the safest options. But then there are these rumors about invisible GMs scouting the area, and i still donīt know how much truth resides in them.
The rest of your estimations seem pretty sharp-thought, but they as well lack the possibility of these weird GM-rumors. If they exist, we donīt know which tools they have at hand and what they are able to do / detect. Seeing that ArenaNet pretty much log everything (remember the BLTC salvage kits not giving the proper chance for ectoes, they sent one to everyone who suffered from that bug), they probably could find any Midnight user if they wanted to - or if they had the manpower to crawl those masses of logs, that is.
EDIT: Oh, and if you want to hear my personal oppinion... well forget about the speedhacks. Who needs to run if you can just teleport (provided the zone you are in is emty or super-full where people popping up out of thin air is common experience [until culling is nonexistent of course]). Most classes have means of running constantly with 25% (seals) or 33% (swiftness), those who havenīt should consider taking runes of the centaur and their shortest-CD healskill for safety reasons.
06/13/2013 00:15
silverwf#34
Guys, stop posting just whine uninformative posts, please.
Let's help to the each other!
I've read all posts and this is my TOP of the bannable functions:
1. Autoexplore. Not only click to the button, but exploring new terrains, WPs etc in the short periods of time and without manually moving to that places. Very-very high chances to be banned. Even without other player reports. We are don't know how they doing that - maybe scanning server logs.
2. Teleport. All kinds: click-to-teleport or moving to the manually saved points. High chances to be banned: ppls can report you also as ANet can scan logs.
3. Trade post hack. Seems like they scanning logs for that now.
Ppls who get banned didn't post another cases of using Midnight.
All I need from the MN now: zoom, ESP and autoloot. And I'm pretty sure this is completely safe functions of the MN. Very sad to lost the teleport functions (bie-bie JP farming and simple WvW moving but... account costs more than that functions ^^)
TLDR: Please try to remember and write all functions of the MN you have used before ban, thanks alot.
Let's help to the each other!
I've read all posts and this is my TOP of the bannable functions:
1. Autoexplore. Not only click to the button, but exploring new terrains, WPs etc in the short periods of time and without manually moving to that places. Very-very high chances to be banned. Even without other player reports. We are don't know how they doing that - maybe scanning server logs.
2. Teleport. All kinds: click-to-teleport or moving to the manually saved points. High chances to be banned: ppls can report you also as ANet can scan logs.
3. Trade post hack. Seems like they scanning logs for that now.
Ppls who get banned didn't post another cases of using Midnight.
All I need from the MN now: zoom, ESP and autoloot. And I'm pretty sure this is completely safe functions of the MN. Very sad to lost the teleport functions (bie-bie JP farming and simple WvW moving but... account costs more than that functions ^^)
TLDR: Please try to remember and write all functions of the MN you have used before ban, thanks alot.
06/13/2013 03:28
RC_Nightsuit#35
I fear silverwf is not talking bullkitten. It happened, i was dumb enough to use Midnight once again to teleport, doing what i always did (only ESP, CtT and teleporting via coordinates to unsuspicious places using a fresh self-written list). While doing so, i didīnt meet even one other player - german servers tend to be empty at this time - and now, while playing a round of sPvP (Midnight was already closed and client restarted) it suddenly closed itself, restarted and leaving me the "Your account has been terminated"-screen.
Of course my fault etc, etc, i am not blaming anyone for it besides me.
But stay sharp... i am almost 100% sure i did never receive a report since i always look for players before heading for a node i want to farm. The ban came just about an hour after ending my farming spree.
To my limited understanding there are a few possibilities now. Either my account already was on some kind of watchlist, only waiting for me being bad boy again. Maybe i ran into some invisible GM. Or, what i mostly fear, there is now a serverside detection for teleports or unusual movement behaviour, which sets off a flag or alarm for further investigation. Whatever it is, its over now... and yes, Midnight itself is still undetected. But i would risk betting my kitten that teleports are now detectable, however i am by no means educated enough to understand or know that for sure. That is up to someone else :)
Of course my fault etc, etc, i am not blaming anyone for it besides me.
But stay sharp... i am almost 100% sure i did never receive a report since i always look for players before heading for a node i want to farm. The ban came just about an hour after ending my farming spree.
To my limited understanding there are a few possibilities now. Either my account already was on some kind of watchlist, only waiting for me being bad boy again. Maybe i ran into some invisible GM. Or, what i mostly fear, there is now a serverside detection for teleports or unusual movement behaviour, which sets off a flag or alarm for further investigation. Whatever it is, its over now... and yes, Midnight itself is still undetected. But i would risk betting my kitten that teleports are now detectable, however i am by no means educated enough to understand or know that for sure. That is up to someone else :)
06/13/2013 09:35
gb3005#36
@rc_nightsuit... i did it like you did. self written lists.. teleported at times when only a few people are online.. and uses radar to see if peoples are near me...
i wrote with the support ... they won't send me any prooves but i they told me i was banned for using a software that manipulate moovements....
i wrote with the support ... they won't send me any prooves but i they told me i was banned for using a software that manipulate moovements....
06/13/2013 09:40
Ext3h#37
You bet they do, and they probably started logging around April / May. I assume that what they do, is to log both teleports (thats really easy to detect, just check for sync packages and filter those with a huge discrepancy between server and client position) and certain skill activations. If a teleport occurs to any location which is neither in the list of known locations (like official waypoints and exits for in-map teleporters) and you haven't activated a skill which allows teleport, you are gone for good. Anti-death is a nobrainer, it's just a teleport which also teleports you in a very strange position...Quote:
Even without other player reports. We are don't know how they doing that - maybe scanning server logs.
Speedhack probably isn't detected yet, at least no automated detection. There is no server side validation of your speed, the server just checks if your position is continuous and plausible. But even low speeds, such as 10%, are visible to other players since you lag a lot. Issue is, you don't even "lag" that much if you are really having a lag, especially not when you run in a straight line (it would rather look like you ran to far and only jump sidewards whenever you change your direction or stop, but almost never jumping forward).
Only the passive options in the Midnight Hack are safe to use, like ESP, Zoom and alike. All others (and this DOES include autoloot, despite anything Buffy says, at least with the current behavior) are not only noticeable to other users, but also vulnerable to automated detection. And you can bet, that Anet is going to activate detection for speedhack next if cheaters start switching from CTT to speedhack.
Wallwalk, noclip and (minor) gravity hack are actually the only active features which can be considered safe for now, the servers don't have enough resources to perform collision tests for all users. It is very obvious to other users and GMs, but automated detection is rather unlikely to happen.
06/13/2013 11:31
buFFy!#38
Go ahead and tell me how autoloot could be detected serverside.Quote:
You bet they do, and they probably started logging around April / May. I assume that what they do, is to log both teleports (thats really easy to detect, just check for sync packages and filter those with a huge discrepancy between server and client position) and certain skill activations. If a teleport occurs to any location which is neither in the list of known locations (like official waypoints and exits for in-map teleporters) and you haven't activated a skill which allows teleport, you are gone for good. Anti-death is a nobrainer, it's just a teleport which also teleports you in a very strange position...
Speedhack probably isn't detected yet, at least no automated detection. There is no server side validation of your speed, the server just checks if your position is continuous and plausible. But even low speeds, such as 10%, are visible to other players since you lag a lot. Issue is, you don't even "lag" that much if you are really having a lag, especially not when you run in a straight line (it would rather look like you ran to far and only jump sidewards whenever you change your direction or stop, but almost never jumping forward).
Only the passive options in the Midnight Hack are safe to use, like ESP, Zoom and alike. All others (and this DOES include autoloot, despite anything Buffy says, at least with the current behavior) are not only noticeable to other users, but also vulnerable to automated detection. And you can bet, that Anet is going to activate detection for speedhack next if cheaters start switching from CTT to speedhack.
Wallwalk, noclip and (minor) gravity hack are actually the only active features which can be considered safe for now, the servers don't have enough resources to perform collision tests for all users. It is very obvious to other users and GMs, but automated detection is rather unlikely to happen.
06/13/2013 12:01
kim22#39
checking the time between a drop is waiting to be picked up and the command used (default F) to collect it. if the time is the same, every time ie 1ms or 0,5ms then that would exceed any human reaction unless you are spamming FFFFFFFFFF while spamming your skills to be sure you pick something up the exact moment it drops.Quote:
if your autoloot is using some kind of packet then its obvios too by determinating the time between the drop packet and pickup is sent/recieved.
i am sure that everything is detectable IF someone is really looking for a way to get it detected..
dont get me wrong on this, i really like midnight and i think that buffy made a very good job keeping it working! its not his fault if anyone gets banned.. every one knows the risk that using a hack can get your account(s) banned.. gw2 is no exception.. its the same for every game ..
buffy supported us all with a tool to expand the gameing experiance above legit players. same in real life.. you buy a car, then you got the tool to drive way faster than its permitted.. if you get cought, your licens is gone and you can take the bus.
if you want to stay as safe as possible - stop using any hacks and stay legit, that way you will never get your accounts banned. and plz stop crying / complaining, noone forced you to pay 10 in order to cheat in a game lol..
06/13/2013 12:25
buFFy!#40
"unless you are spamming F" <- exactly.Quote:
if your autoloot is using some kind of packet then its obvios too by determinating the time between the drop packet and pickup is sent/recieved.
i am sure that everything is detectable IF someone is really looking for a way to get it detected..
dont get me wrong on this, i really like midnight and i think that buffy made a very good job keeping it working! its not his fault if anyone gets banned.. every one knows the risk that using a hack can get your account(s) banned.. gw2 is no exception.. its the same for every game ..
buffy supported us all with a tool to expand the gameing experiance above legit players. same in real life.. you buy a car, then you got the tool to drive way faster than its permitted.. if you get cought, your licens is gone and you can take the bus.
if you want to stay as safe as possible - stop using any hacks and stay legit, that way you will never get your accounts banned. and plz stop crying / complaining, noone forced you to pay 10€ in order to cheat in a game lol..
That's what autoloot does. And thus they can't ban you for it because it does nothing a normal player couldn't do.
Also, the server can't "see" that, because whenever you loot something, the packet is send once, no matter how often you press F.
06/13/2013 13:03
kim22#41
its still hard to actually fight/move/dodge/kill a mob/player while spamming the F key at the same time.. i am sure there has to be some way this could be suspicious.. i for example cannot do all that at the same time :P
anyway, i didnt say that autoloots IS detected.. all i said was, if they want to find a specific thing, there is always a way ..
anyway, i didnt say that autoloots IS detected.. all i said was, if they want to find a specific thing, there is always a way ..
06/13/2013 21:08
Xereon#42
Well what one could theoretical detect with his brain is still something completely different what a computer can detect. The method you propose is nearly unimplementable without alot of false positives. And anet surely dont want to piss off legit players. And I dont want to start talking about the performance bottlenecks.Quote:
anyway, i didnt say that autoloots IS detected.. all i said was, if they want to find a specific thing, there is always a way ..
If one looks at what was (e.g crashing their servers) / is possible, how long it is known and how certain things behave, I think one can safely say that anet gives a shit about anti-cheat (atleast from a programmatical perspective). Nor do I think that the recent bans are a result of anet explicitely detecting teleporting (we would see alot more people banned). It might be just a more aggressive anti-cheat policy (regarding gms and threshholds) or what I think is more plausible, banning using heuristics (based on reports and bans). Why do I think so? Because Anet announced it and it perfectly matchs to all these auto-explorer bans.
06/14/2013 03:00
Flytiger#43
I use a Razer mouse and virtually always use the mouse numbered buttons for skills. it's quite easy to spam the F key manually while fighting.
06/14/2013 07:31
jester#44
After several mails they unban my acc.
Told them that i dont know what they talking about.
Told them that i dont know what they talking about.
06/14/2013 08:18
macondo#45
Not only this hack.
All hacks will ban you.
There's no safe cheating, hacking method on this or any other game.
You guys break the rules. You deserve to be ban.
End of topic.
GUILD WARS RULES OF CONDUCT
20. You may not use any third-party
program (such as a bot) in order to
automate gameplay functions, including
playing, chatting, interacting, or gathering
gold or items within Guild Wars 2 . You may
not assist, relay, or store gold or items for
other players who are using these
processes.
All hacks will ban you.
There's no safe cheating, hacking method on this or any other game.
You guys break the rules. You deserve to be ban.
End of topic.
GUILD WARS RULES OF CONDUCT
20. You may not use any third-party
program (such as a bot) in order to
automate gameplay functions, including
playing, chatting, interacting, or gathering
gold or items within Guild Wars 2 . You may
not assist, relay, or store gold or items for
other players who are using these
processes.